Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 160 posts

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#131

Post by Closi »

pritambaral wrote: post #93
Closi wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you got downvoted, but I agree. Just because Microsoft open sourced VS Code doesn't mean they have to open source anything that touches it. Microsoft are allowed to have closed source language servers and extensions! And their reasoning seems pretty straight forward: * Microsoft sells developer tools (as well as giving away loads for free!). * Microsoft has invested money into giving their products (both the fr…

All of those reasons you quote apply just as well to VS Code itself, and by that logic, MS shouldn't have open sourced VS Code either. You don't see anyone complaining that Visual Studio itself (the older one, not VS Code) is not open source. It's only when MS began the whole "MS hearts Open Source" campaign that their actions (voluntarily) entered this kind of scrutiny. There's no doubt that VS Code would not have a…

> All of those reasons you quote apply just as well to VS Code itself, and by that logic, MS shouldn't have open sourced VS Code either.

I disagree - The VSC Codebase (and functionality contained in it) isn't easily ported into competitor products (the fourth point) while Pylance is fully portable by design (could be incorporated into competitor products instantly!).

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#132

Post by pritambaral »

g9yuayon wrote: post #119
pritambaral wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that's NOT how FOSS works. This whole "Free as in Beer" vs "Free as in Speech" debate is really old now, and the rhetoric that FOSS users/supporters are just freeloaders mooching off of work done by others is grossly outdated.

Does FOSS mandate that anything and everything must be open sourced? Richard Stallman holds this belief that all software should be free as in speech, but is such belief universally held? Or simply put, did MS violate any license at all? And no, I didn't imply that FOSS supporters are freeloaders in any way. You got that impression probably because of loss in translation. Rather, people who criticize MS for not open…

> Does FOSS mandate that anything and everything must be open sourced?

That is not the argument you're seeing here. There is no claim that any portions of MS's other IDEs (like the older, unrelated Visual Studio) be open sourced. This is only in the context of MS playing the façade that VS Code is "Open Source" and "Microsoft hearts Open Source" that such decisions fall under scrutiny.

> And no, I didn't imply that FOSS supporters are freeloaders in any way. You got that impression probably because of loss in translation.

Perhaps, but I don't see how else to interpret "he will hate you for not giving enough".

> trying to force a company or anyone to totally comply with their moral standard.

1. I don't see force. I see criticism.

2. The criticism draws its legitimacy from an action MS took: they're the ones claiming they "heart" Open Source and that VS Code is Open Source.

Sure, MS doesn't have to Open Source this specific extension, or any part of their IDE. They don't even have to keep the IDE Open Source. But then, they need to stop calling it so when it isn't: https://underjord.io/the-best-parts-of-visual-studio-code-ar...

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#133

Post by kitkat_new »

kenniskrag wrote: post #121
kitkat_new wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they also don't want to let me spin up my own server and interoperate

I think you can spin up your own server: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server

but you can't interoperate with the Signal server - it is a separate silo.

It is like using two different messengers then

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#134

Post by pritambaral »

Closi wrote: post #131
pritambaral wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those reasons you quote apply just as well to VS Code itself, and by that logic, MS shouldn't have open sourced VS Code either. You don't see anyone complaining that Visual Studio itself (the older one, not VS Code) is not open source. It's only when MS began the whole "MS hearts Open Source" campaign that their actions (voluntarily) entered this kind of scrutiny. There's no doubt that VS Code would not have a…

> All of those reasons you quote apply just as well to VS Code itself, and by that logic, MS shouldn't have open sourced VS Code either. I disagree - The VSC Codebase (and functionality contained in it) isn't easily ported into competitor products (the fourth point) while Pylance is fully portable by design (could be incorporated into competitor products instantly!).

> The VSC Codebase (and functionality contained in it) isn't easily ported into competitor products (the fourth point) while Pylance is fully portable by design (could be incorporated into competitor products instantly!).

Only if you consider the LSP standard (proposed and promulgated by MS themselves, made for and with VS Code) as not part of VS Code. My comment — "All of those reasons ... apply ... to VS Code itself" — includes LSP.

In fact, the only reason you can claim "while Pylance is fully portable by design (could be incorporated into competitor products instantly!)" is because of LSP!

Besides, it's not like competitor IDEs that have taken VS Code's codebase wholesale don't exist. Have a look at https://theia-ide.org/ for a start!

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#135

Post by pritambaral »

techman9 wrote: post #65
saagarjha wrote: post #2

I hate to bring out the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” argument, but I honestly can’t think of any other reason for this. Visual Studio Code has gotten really popular lately, but I think very few people realize that many parts of it are closed source. And you can’t take extensions from the Microsoft store and use them in your own editor…this just seems designed to get people to use your editor, give them enough so…

> I think very few people realize that many parts of it are closed source Which parts are closed-source?

Not your parent, but this is a good starting point: https://underjord.io/the-best-parts-of-visual-studio-code-ar...

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#136

Post by Closi »

pritambaral wrote: post #132
g9yuayon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does FOSS mandate that anything and everything must be open sourced? Richard Stallman holds this belief that all software should be free as in speech, but is such belief universally held? Or simply put, did MS violate any license at all? And no, I didn't imply that FOSS supporters are freeloaders in any way. You got that impression probably because of loss in translation. Rather, people who criticize MS for not open…

> Does FOSS mandate that anything and everything must be open sourced? That is not the argument you're seeing here. There is no claim that any portions of MS's other IDEs (like the older, unrelated Visual Studio) be open sourced. This is only in the context of MS playing the façade that VS Code is "Open Source" and "Microsoft hearts Open Source" that such decisions fall under scrutiny. > And no, I didn't imply that F…

* VS Code is open source.

* Microsoft's Python language server (used by multiple closed-source products) isn't.

* The language server is compatible with VS Code.

* Microsoft is providing a free licence to the language server.

* Now people complain that it's not open source any more, because they provided a free licence to something compatible that is closed source.

So we can have a code base, not change any of the code or licence terms, and in the action of giving people a free licence for a compatible product, somehow the first code base is not open source anymore!

So according to your logic, a code base can remain static, with the same licence terms, and suddenly it's not open source anymore!

This is what OP means. They provide significant amounts of code into to Open Source, then provide a free licence to something closed source, and people call them fake and selfish unless they provide more stuff for free.

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#137

Post by pritambaral »

petr_tik wrote: post #130
beagle3 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft did promote it, at least in its early days, as an open and standard system, and the LSP as a way to go from MxN language specific IDE implementations to M+N. But tben, they make it 2xM+N by forbidding the use of their LSPs in other editors - which, if done by everyone would put as back at MxN. This is hypocritical behavior, and it does remind people of EE&E which was Microsoft’s explicit policy in the past.…

> by forbidding the use of their LSPs in other editors How can they prevent my, let’s say vim, client from connecting to a closed-source server if they both speak the same protocol?

One way would be to make the closed-source server speak mostly-but-not-quite-the-same protocol.

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#138

Post by pbhjpbhj »

arcturus17 wrote: post #115
saagarjha wrote: post #2

I hate to bring out the old “embrace, extend, extinguish” argument, but I honestly can’t think of any other reason for this. Visual Studio Code has gotten really popular lately, but I think very few people realize that many parts of it are closed source. And you can’t take extensions from the Microsoft store and use them in your own editor…this just seems designed to get people to use your editor, give them enough so…

Let’s not kid ourselves, most people use Code because it’s free as in free beer, and that’s it. I personally feel lucky that unlike for categories like web search, social networking or mobile messaging, the IDE market features some reasonably-priced paid alternatives of extremely high quality. But many people - including some truly outstanding developers - will continue to use VSCode because they believe that free as…

I'm not a developer but I was using Pycharm (community edition, already free) and switched because I found it better for webdev, particularly the plugin ecosystem had useful components. Other apps do to, but I think vscode has gained a lot of development in the ecosystem because of the FOSS dressing it adopted. I think it's it has been closed source, paid for, then it wouldn't have garnered that attention and instead other OS projects would have gained more attention. So I don't think it's fair to say it's just about free-gratis status.

Vscode kinda brought me back towards MS, or at least closer to them. Once I'd started using it on Linux (Kubuntu) then trying Win10 again was less of a leap.

I've not bought in to the New Friendlier Microsoft, but the hope was growing.

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#139

Post by pritambaral »

majkinetor wrote: post #116
saagarjha wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did here by pushing LSP as a standard. Actually, LSP allows for closed source extensions that are generally useful: they have specially prevented that from happening here. There may be the usual “but it’s not open source” complaints here if they did that, but I suspect that people were mostly interested in the source so they could build their own version that they could use elsewhere more than that they actually…

I am glad they did. LSP is eons better then stuff we had before.

And nobody here is arguing "LSP is bad". They're instead criticising the duplicity of proposing and promulgating an open "standard" that LSP is supposed to be, and then breaking that practice.

Re: Microsoft Refuses to Open Source VSCode Python Language Server

#140

Post by Closi »

pritambaral wrote: post #134
Closi wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of those reasons you quote apply just as well to VS Code itself, and by that logic, MS shouldn't have open sourced VS Code either. I disagree - The VSC Codebase (and functionality contained in it) isn't easily ported into competitor products (the fourth point) while Pylance is fully portable by design (could be incorporated into competitor products instantly!).

> The VSC Codebase (and functionality contained in it) isn't easily ported into competitor products (the fourth point) while Pylance is fully portable by design (could be incorporated into competitor products instantly!). Only if you consider the LSP standard (proposed and promulgated by MS themselves, made for and with VS Code) as not part of VS Code. My comment — "All of those reasons ... apply ... to VS Code itsel…

The LSP implementation for VS code is part of VS code OSS.

Not all LSP language servers are.

Just as the C# runtime can be open source, but not all C# programs are.

Post reply on HN