Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is anyone claiming that censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? It is mostly people under a false/misunderstood "freedom of speech" pretense saying that Twitter/Facebook/etc should not be able to ban whomever they want.
Perhaps I'm using the word "censor" in a way that points to the government being the censor. But I mean it to be more encompassing of any entity that has the right to remove content from communications channels. Currently the platforms are private (as a peer comment points out). So right now there isn't technically a "freedom of speech" issue as it's a private matter and private entities in the USA don't need to resp…
EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
131–140 of 164 posts
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#132Could anyone point me to some cogent, well-formed arguments for why censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? i.e. books, articles, etc? I have some thoughts but would like more perspective before fully forming an opinion. (not arguing one way or the other below) For example, I’d like to understand the defining characteristics of social media platforms that contrasts them from traditional public forums tha…
> I’d like to understand the defining characteristics of social media platforms that contrasts them from traditional public forums that have existed through history. I'll put out some ideas quickly. You can build on them. Please share back what you find. Social media platforms, more or less: * Tend to blur any one sense of place * Offer geographically dispersed communication * May deemphasize the overall humanity of…
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#133I see. Hold your ground for free speech till... Ok, we were kidding we were just bluffing. Go ahead. We don't care. We support corporate censorship now full throat. It's for the best. We're looking out for your own good. I mean really, so you know it was in the government's purview to hold Snowden, Manning and Assange accountable to what's within their rights too. Nice to see you sway with the wind there EFF. Guess B…
Free speech for a corporation is allowing them to ban whatever they want that's effecting their bottom line. Hosting and publishing certain speech is a liability. Why should the state dictate what a corporation must allow on their own servers facilitated by the services they created? Should the state force YouTube to include videos no advertiser wants to be associated with? EFF's statement is consistent with protecti…
That's freedom of association.
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is anyone claiming that censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? It is mostly people under a false/misunderstood "freedom of speech" pretense saying that Twitter/Facebook/etc should not be able to ban whomever they want.
Perhaps I'm using the word "censor" in a way that points to the government being the censor. But I mean it to be more encompassing of any entity that has the right to remove content from communications channels. Currently the platforms are private (as a peer comment points out). So right now there isn't technically a "freedom of speech" issue as it's a private matter and private entities in the USA don't need to resp…
If you post something to say, Twitter, that is now their content that you have given to them for their benefit with the sole purpose of extracting value from the attention the content you handed over to them brings through the sale of advertising. That sale of advertising is what keeps the servers up and the engineers keeping it glued together paid. The surplus is profit distributed to the shareholders. This is of course an exchange where the value you extract stems from having your content amplified or enhanced in some way by their service. If for any reason any actor’s interaction with the service is determined to lead to a net loss, the only appropriate course of action is to remove that actor from the system.
The real problem isn’t a free speech or censorship issue, it is an anti-trust issue where a single entity has such an overwhelming control of a particular stream of media that their actions have excessive impact on the business and social ecosystems. Whether it is an anti-trust issue can be determined on how difficult it is for a competitor to establish themselves profitably in the marketplace. What sort of moats would need to be overcome to properly compete with e.g. Twitter given the monumental first mover advantage of that particular media stream... the media stream they created and proved?
In simpler terms, whether Facebook / Google / etc banning something they deem detrimental to their financial success having potential egregious impact on culture, society... whatever, is more a sign that these products have established themselves into the market in a way that’s fundamentally problematic and needs examination and effort to alleviate.
Should they turn into a public utility would change the entire business model and power dynamic and is not really relevant to what’s happening here. If for example the United States nationalized AWS and provided it as a civic web services infrastructure, free speech laws would be understood under a very different power dynamic. Censorship issues would be brought up and likely dealt with systemically, like not allowing the people running it from looking at what you’re hosting (you can organize a terrorist attack on the United States over the US postal service, by consequence of its intentional design).
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
> who said LEAVE IN PEACE is what we should be doing. “we”? He also called the insurrectionists “patriots”, and said that he “loved them”, while they were holding the capital building, looting, causing damage, and parading confederate flags through the halls. Just FYI. As like another thing to consider. It’s sort of surprising how you didn’t mention that yourself. It was literally in the same tweet. I guess it must h…
This is how you de-escalate, you relate. Standard practice[1]: 1. Actively Listen 2. Build Empathy & Rapport (recognize each others mindset) 3. Exert Influence & Change It's also likely, he wasn't 100% aware of the circumstances. Coming out and saying, "I abandon you, you traitors" wouldn't help. Imagine if there were hostages or more bombs! Saying it in a nice way could defuse the situation. Damning it while they ar…
The leave in peace video clearly had a subtext (he mentioned the election being stolen no less than 3 times in the video) and was not aimed at subduing the crowd at all. Furthermore, the later video where he said that the trespassers would be prosecuted is clearly scripted/edited (from the monotone and cuts in the filming), and likely happened because of some strong-arming (how else did he go from "we will never concede" to admitting defeat in a single day?)
My best guess as to what happened there was that Mitch McConnell (or someone else) figured that he could whip enough votes to impeach & convict if need be and Trump, facing potential consequences, reluctantly decided to play ball.
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#136> A platform should not apply one set of rules to most of its users, and then apply a more permissive set of rules to politicians and world leaders who are already immensely powerful. Ok... why not? A government is an unavoidably violent institution, and what's more, one which assumes the right and responsibility to use violence. In a free nation, it derives that right through various rituals from the consent of the…
In a nutshell, one of the bedrock ideas of liberal society is that government officials and governments are not the same thing. We permit the government to do some things that individuals are not permitted to do, out of necessity, because we have yet to construct a society that eliminates the need for certain ostensibly necessary evils. We find that delegating those responsibilities to a corporate body that is largel…
I'm inclined to agree with what you describe, but it worries me how many of them (us?) have come to feel that it doesn't work.
We have a growing left convinced that 'the government' is just a bunch of elites caring about maintaining their wealth, and a growing right that believes the same.
I feel both perspectives are at least not unreasonable. So as someone trying to be reasonable and in favor of maintaining some kind of order, where does that leave me? How do we maintain order without accepting a very small elite to maintain it's (corrupt) power? How do we talk to our 'constituents' about this?
I'm truly in favor of solutions that don't end up causing societal chaos and killing people, but I'm lost as to the how.
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
They sort of have to be. In the fight to preserve electronic freedoms, freedom from censorship and freedom to operate a service as one pleases come at odds with each other in cases like this. If instead, the government had confiscated Parler's domains, or enjoined Apple, Google, and Amazon from booting them, I think EFF's response would (rightly/expectedly IMO) be very different. As an EFF member I think they made th…
> As an EFF member I think they made the right call here. They didn't. They chickened out. The ACLU was more vocal in its opposition to censorship. That should show how cowardly the EFF is being right now. You falsely made it seem like EFF only deals with or is concerned with government "suppression". That isn't true. Most of EFF dealings is with corporate "suppression". Under normal circumstances, EFF would have bee…
My principles don't include "force tech companies to host content for terrorists trying to violently overthrow a democracy".
(ACLU, on the other hand, I expect to take the free-speech-absolutist stance...)
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
>You know how to simmer tensions? You convince the leaders of said movement to calm followers. this. this is why the deplatforming of a single political leader is confusing. if trump can calm down the fringe elements, that's what he needs to do. gagging him from ever reaching that base is counter productive. one day..we will all be looking back at these events and scratch our heads. this course of action makes no sen…
> if trump can calm down the fringe elements, that's what he needs to do. On what basis do you think Trump has the interest in calming the fringe elements? And if he did have the motivation, on what basis do you think he would be successful?
You are aware he said for everyone to go home and he condemned the violence? https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/trump-condemns-vio...
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
In a nutshell, one of the bedrock ideas of liberal society is that government officials and governments are not the same thing. We permit the government to do some things that individuals are not permitted to do, out of necessity, because we have yet to construct a society that eliminates the need for certain ostensibly necessary evils. We find that delegating those responsibilities to a corporate body that is largel…
Where does it leave the people who lack trust in that kind of delegation? What do we do about that? I'm inclined to agree with what you describe, but it worries me how many of them (us?) have come to feel that it doesn't work. We have a growing left convinced that 'the government' is just a bunch of elites caring about maintaining their wealth, and a growing right that believes the same. I feel both perspectives are…
But, here's one thought: Texas state legislators are paid a salary of $7,200 per year. Not exactly a lot to live on. So they've clearly got to either be independently wealthy, or figure out some other source of income. "A well nourished Legislature, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to seek and receive graft shall not be infringed." Or something like that.
Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As an EFF member I think they made the right call here. They didn't. They chickened out. The ACLU was more vocal in its opposition to censorship. That should show how cowardly the EFF is being right now. You falsely made it seem like EFF only deals with or is concerned with government "suppression". That isn't true. Most of EFF dealings is with corporate "suppression". Under normal circumstances, EFF would have bee…
No, meaning, if they argued in favor of Parler, they'd have lost my support. My principles don't include "force tech companies to host content for terrorists trying to violently overthrow a democracy". (ACLU, on the other hand, I expect to take the free-speech-absolutist stance...)