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EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

eff.org

121–130 of 164 posts

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#121
post #85

I think EFF should look for improvements to their communication on this topic. They need to be providing much more practical leadership guidance. The ideological goals don't need compromise -- but the practical reality is that our society _needs_ an organization like EFF to be at the forefront on these topics -- advocating for better abstractions to help shape how we as a society should think and deal with these comp…

> EFF shouldn't be effectively silencing itself by becoming a voice that just repeats platitudes. I don't follow how this is tantamount to silencing itself. Would you explain?

The context as I see it -- one of the largest (if not the largest) social media megaphones controlled by a single human was recently silenced because of a recognition that this megaphone was being actively used to cause widespread harm.

The eff response to these actions is to emphasize that such blocking should be allowed so long as a consistent set of rules is used to perform blocking for this reason across a whole network. And they suggest the communication scale of the actor being blocked should not be a factor in the management criteria applied to the speech flowing across a given channel.

That's a principled position but it's also ludicrous - and it's impossible to take advice from that position which can then be applied to the real world. It's as tho they've said "yes, we acknowledge that free speech faces limits -- such as no yelling fire in a crowded theater -- but we do not acknowledge the existence of crowded theaters". What kind of advice are we left to take from such philosophizing?

Text sent over the largest of megaphones is just not the same thing as text sent over the much smaller megaphones available to most social media users.

Taking the EFF position espoused here to an extreme for illustration -- suppose Alice decides to use the emergency broadcast system as her personal twitter account for a day. With her every message all the cell phones in the country buzz an emergency broadcast alert letting us know what Alice wants to say. She exercises her right to political speech to let us all know that she thinks birth control pills are evil -- and in so doing she consumes some seconds of attention from 300 million people. At the same time -- she cross-posts to her twitter where she is followed by 50 people.

The EFF are more or less suggesting that the same principles and rules should apply to her twitter posts and her emergency broadcast system posts.

But in reality -- do we consider these information publishing channels directly comparable? Are we forced to accept that because these are both information publishing channels -- the set of things Alice is allowed to say on both channels must be the same?

Obviously we are not forced to take this position. And obviously this is a bit of a silly example since we all already know that different rules apply to the emergency broadcasting network -- yet we don't use the word "censor" to describe the set of things we don't want Alice to send out over the emergency broadcast network -- and why is that?

Going back to my claim that they are silencing themselves -- I think the EFF position in this article is basically abstract philosophy and that they are going out of their way to avoid addressing any of the specifics required to guide action in the real world. They had an opportunity to say something useful -- instead they said nothing in more words.

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#122
post #98
post #91

Could anyone point me to some cogent, well-formed arguments for why censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? i.e. books, articles, etc? I have some thoughts but would like more perspective before fully forming an opinion. (not arguing one way or the other below) For example, I’d like to understand the defining characteristics of social media platforms that contrasts them from traditional public forums tha…

Is anyone claiming that censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? It is mostly people under a false/misunderstood "freedom of speech" pretense saying that Twitter/Facebook/etc should not be able to ban whomever they want.

[deleted]

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#123
post #91

Could anyone point me to some cogent, well-formed arguments for why censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? i.e. books, articles, etc? I have some thoughts but would like more perspective before fully forming an opinion. (not arguing one way or the other below) For example, I’d like to understand the defining characteristics of social media platforms that contrasts them from traditional public forums tha…

I'll bite.

Censorship of social platforms is absolutely necessary and this is obvious if you think about the problem for long enough, and even more obvious if you try to run one. Spam is a form of speech. You will get DDOSed by bad faith actors selling viagra without censorship. Now of course that's not what people are discussing, but almost all moderation is censorship. Censorship is table stakes to even be able to have a public community beyond a certain size, an uncensored public community would just be static, noise.

If you look at the pure numbers only a small minority of (human) users actually get banned, and most of the censorship happens further down the moderation chain. What people are arguing over, in practice, is if maybe a fraction of a percent of users should be banned or not or should have their posts removed or not. Censorship is so pervasive it's not even recognized as such. The actual disagreement is over a very small fraction of users and rules that would in practice affect a fraction of a percent of users and perhaps spark a trend of self-censorship. Censorship of social media platforms is good, what's in question is if we're perhaps going too far, but the actual difference between peoples views when you look at things from far enough back is actually fairly narrow. Additionally trying to enable the average person to have "Freedom of expression" online while NOT engaging in censorship paradoxically isn't even possible.

The key then as I see it is to keep censorship as minimalistic as practicable, have the rules be well defined, and to empower user self-regulation. It's also a concern to avoid, as much as is practicable, creating community schisms where a group splits off and creates it's own filter bubble which I consider to be outright dangerous (A threat to safety, if you will). For this reason, but also for its own sake, I argue for making efforts to avoid tyrannies of the majority. Because of these priorities, I usually present myself as a free speech proponent since I always seem to be saying people shouldn't be banned or suppressed, but in reality I support broad and sweeping and even automated censorship.

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#124
post #87

Well, I’ll never be donating again. I’m more concerned about parler being banned or that “hang pence” was trending, but banning the president - who said LEAVE IN PEACE is what we should be doing. I’m against all rioting (all year it feels like) and what happened Jan 6 was horrifying. You know how to simmer tensions? You convince the leaders of said movement to calm followers. banning / arresting / killing all the lea…

> who said LEAVE IN PEACE is what we should be doing. “we”? He also called the insurrectionists “patriots”, and said that he “loved them”, while they were holding the capital building, looting, causing damage, and parading confederate flags through the halls. Just FYI. As like another thing to consider. It’s sort of surprising how you didn’t mention that yourself. It was literally in the same tweet. I guess it must h…

This is how you de-escalate, you relate.

Standard practice[1]:

1. Actively Listen

2. Build Empathy & Rapport (recognize each others mindset)

3. Exert Influence & Change

It's also likely, he wasn't 100% aware of the circumstances.

Coming out and saying, "I abandon you, you traitors" wouldn't help. Imagine if there were hostages or more bombs! Saying it in a nice way could defuse the situation. Damning it while they are still at or in the building is not a good idea.

In a later video Trump said "they'll be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law" and "we need Law and Order". So, I don't think it's a fair characterization given the context.

[1] https://www.inc.com/thomas-koulopoulos/how-to-negotiate-usin...

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#125
post #109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone claiming that censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? It is mostly people under a false/misunderstood "freedom of speech" pretense saying that Twitter/Facebook/etc should not be able to ban whomever they want.

Perhaps I'm using the word "censor" in a way that points to the government being the censor. But I mean it to be more encompassing of any entity that has the right to remove content from communications channels. Currently the platforms are private (as a peer comment points out). So right now there isn't technically a "freedom of speech" issue as it's a private matter and private entities in the USA don't need to resp…

There’s no “right to tweet.” I feel like this line of thinking takes social media way too seriously.

There’s nothing legally or ethically wrong with having something like Twitter that is more of a neutral communication channel. I’m sure it exists. It’s just that Twitter is popular. Regulations that make something like the-Twitter-we-actually-have illegal are a step in the wrong direction. Twitter was started by human beings with certain values and goals, like making it easier to tell your friends what you are up to, and making money. If they don’t want blood on their hands, that’s their choice.

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#126

> A platform should not apply one set of rules to most of its users, and then apply a more permissive set of rules to politicians and world leaders who are already immensely powerful. Ok... why not? A government is an unavoidably violent institution, and what's more, one which assumes the right and responsibility to use violence. In a free nation, it derives that right through various rituals from the consent of the…

Maybe the EFF has an anarchist political philosophy and doesn't think the state should have a monopoly on violence and that these types of positions of power shouldn't exist?

There's a difference between prescription and description, and just because you have the prescriptive belief that nobody should murder doesn't mean your worldview works that way. All governments since forever have used violence as a core technique for order, and I doubt the EFF thinks otherwise.

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#127
post #100
post #91

Could anyone point me to some cogent, well-formed arguments for why censorship of social media platforms is a good idea? i.e. books, articles, etc? I have some thoughts but would like more perspective before fully forming an opinion. (not arguing one way or the other below) For example, I’d like to understand the defining characteristics of social media platforms that contrasts them from traditional public forums tha…

> I’d like to understand the defining characteristics of social media platforms that contrasts them from traditional public forums that have existed through history. I'll put out some ideas quickly. You can build on them. Please share back what you find. Social media platforms, more or less: * Tend to blur any one sense of place * Offer geographically dispersed communication * May deemphasize the overall humanity of…

[deleted]

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#128
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone thinks that hatred is a moral obligation. It's okay to show compassion to people that you think are making a mistake.

Which part was the mistake? Breaking in, looting, parading the confederate flag, killing a cop, insurrection?

Blind partisan hatred is a mistake.

Besides that, the people responsible for violent crimes will very likely be prosecuted and harshly punished. The message "go home peacefully" is irrelevant for those people and is probably intended for everyone else. Looting is bad, but it's "jail time" bad and not "undying hatred" bad. It's okay to show some compassion to looters while telling them to change their behavior.

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#129

Echo of majority view on incident. Clarification of legal basis for censorship on private platforms. Support of section 230. Concern about bias in private censorship. Call for transparency and consistency. It's as neutral as can be.

They sort of have to be. In the fight to preserve electronic freedoms, freedom from censorship and freedom to operate a service as one pleases come at odds with each other in cases like this. If instead, the government had confiscated Parler's domains, or enjoined Apple, Google, and Amazon from booting them, I think EFF's response would (rightly/expectedly IMO) be very different. As an EFF member I think they made th…

I guess there are ways to transcend this conflict.

For example, perhaps social networks can sort themselves into two types, public-square type and non-public-square type.

The networks which self-identify as public-square shall (1) employ a stronger set of freedom of speech protection rules, (2) be supervised by the government, an independent council, the media and the public, and (3) receive financial incentive, which could be a limited tax exempt status or governmental subsidy, depending on your preference.

Re: EFF's response to social media companies' decisions to block Trump’s accounts

#130

Echo of majority view on incident. Clarification of legal basis for censorship on private platforms. Support of section 230. Concern about bias in private censorship. Call for transparency and consistency. It's as neutral as can be.

They sort of have to be. In the fight to preserve electronic freedoms, freedom from censorship and freedom to operate a service as one pleases come at odds with each other in cases like this. If instead, the government had confiscated Parler's domains, or enjoined Apple, Google, and Amazon from booting them, I think EFF's response would (rightly/expectedly IMO) be very different. As an EFF member I think they made th…

> As an EFF member I think they made the right call here.

They didn't. They chickened out. The ACLU was more vocal in its opposition to censorship. That should show how cowardly the EFF is being right now.

You falsely made it seem like EFF only deals with or is concerned with government "suppression". That isn't true. Most of EFF dealings is with corporate "suppression".

Under normal circumstances, EFF would have been far more vocal. But since they are extremely biased in this case, they chose to be anti-free speech.

"The EFF was active in the United States presidential election 2016 because of online phishing related to the controversy over fabrication of election results. J. Alex Halderman, a computer security professor at the University of Michigan, wrote an article that was published in Medium in 2016 stating he thought it was advisable to have a recount on some of the election results from states like Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation

Don't you think EFF's belief in 2016 election fraud had anything to do with their lukewarm defense of Trump's free speech here?

They have a long history of questioning voting results, but only when republicans win...

"The EFF has long been an advocate of paper audit trails for voting machines and testified in support of them after the United States presidential election 2004."

I generally think EFF is a worthy enterprise, but it's obvious political bias is the reason for their pathetic "support" for free speech here.

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