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ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

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Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#151
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny. I've seen talk of making Cloudflare ban thedonald.win (the reddit clone of trump supporters). What's next? Make your own routers? Lay your own cables?

Sure. That's the market for ya. The invisible hand can still get stuff done. If you hit a cog that's a government-granted monopoly, then I'd sympathize with that. Otherwise, I have zero sympathy for supposed market proponents who want the government to step in as long as it's in their favor. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

This. I fail to see how someone can be ok with “we don’t need environmental regulations, the free market will sort it out” but then won’t accept that the same markets may choose to not allow fascist propaganda.

The free market has spoken, these companies don’t want to be associated with a movement to overthrow elections and undermine democracy.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is lower confidence because there have been more issues. 2020 has been a hectic year. Ascribing the lower confidence entirely to the media is not a convincing argument. Regardless, that’s not really my point. A sizable portion of the population thinks the election was fishy. Saying, “Too bad, you’re dumb and wrong” doesn’t accomplish anything when it comes to reducing polarization. I genuinely don’t see the pro…

> Saying, “Too bad, you’re dumb and wrong” Not sure anyone said that. Judges reviewed court cases, and failing to find legitimate cases, dismissed them. That's not saying "you're dumb and wrong." That's saying - you do not have a case because you don't have evidence. > a robust investigation It sounds like each side defines a "robust investigation" differently. Given that judges from both major political parties dism…

Referencing a bunch of random academic sources doesn’t make your argument any stronger.

The attitude of the media and the Democratic Party in general has absolutely been “You’re dumb and wrong.” As my initial comment said, this accomplishes the exact opposite thing. People feeling lost and ripped off aren’t going to suddenly change their mind because talking heads on CNN assured them everything was legit. Especially when these sources spent the last four years becoming highly partisan. It’s difficult to even recognize The NY Times anymore, they’ve fallen so far. Skepticism seems like a rational move to me.

‘Courts dismissing cases’ is not equivalent to an investigation. As I said before, my primary concern is reducing polarization. I really don’t care how much it costs. Any price is worth avoiding serious civil unrest.

Parties come to agreements on the extent of investigations all the time and there is zero reason a similar compromise couldn’t be worked out for the sake of the country. Of course, no one will do this, because it doesn’t benefit them personally.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#153
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure looks anti-competitive when Parler is deleted from all the app stores now doesn’t it? And we have people vocally calling for Cloudflare and AWS to deny them hosting services.

Then don't download it from the app store.

Not an argument.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#154
post #69
post #23

The man literally has a press office and a press staff. There are any number of outlets who will cling to his every word in order to praise or criticize it. I don't use twitter and seem to learn what is said. It is difficult to see what the problem is.

Yes but do you? When Twitter suspends your speech do you have a press office to get your word out? If they dare to do it to the president you think they have any reservations about censoring anyone else?

Why are you compering him to Trump? Why do you need to defend such person. Road to the hell is paved with good intentions.

This ban was long overdue. Are some people more equal than others?

I may be downvoted here for this statement but that is just some site on the internet. I may be banned from Twitter that is also just another site. Actually was banned from r/Conservative, so what?

Facebook/Twitter are problems because many things, but banning someone for roaring the masses is not one of them.

And arguments like: 'But who is deciding what is hate speech?' seems to me just like fallacy here. Because we have concrete example of spreading misinformation and roaring people in order to undermine civic society. This has already led to violence. 'What if' is just taking away attention from what has already been done.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how this is 100% a liability issue and everyone jumps to the First Amendment like automatons. Twitter and Facebook are each gonna blow hundreds of millions of dollars dealing with litigation from the fallout of the other day. They have zero obligation to host insane seditious rhetoric or the people who have encouraged it.

Is it a liability issue? Section 230?

(2)Civil liability

No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—

(A)any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or

(B)any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1).[1]

Section 230 doesn't protect you from everything. It is a band aid.

Specifically, it says that you have to show that you have tried to prevent malevolent content in good faith. You can't just let it sit there and fester on your servers and pretend that you're covered. Section 230 essentially requires moderation of content.

They knew what was going on. They let it happen anyway. They are liable. They don't want to be liable again.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a liability issue? Section 230?

(2)Civil liability No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of— (A)any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or (B)any action…

> Specifically, it says that you have to show that you have tried to prevent malevolent content in good faith.

No, it doesn't, for the type of liability for hosted content, rather than its removal/restriction, that it applies to at all.

> You can't just let it sit there and fester on your servers and pretend that you're covered.

Yes, you can. 230 has more than one area of protection. Two of them are:

(1) You (as a service provider or another user) aren't liable as a publisher for user-generated content that you aren't the origin of. 47 USC Sec. 230(c)(1)

(2) As a provider, you also aren't liable for good faith efforts to restrict access to offensive content or enable content providers the ability to restrict access to offensive content. 46 USC Sec 230(c)(2)

But, notably, Section 230 doesn't apply to criminal liability at all, and there is a real risk of criminal liability under the law against material support for terrorism for knowingly providing any service that you know is supporting some of the acts that have occurred or which have been reported to be now being publicly planned on social media platforms.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#157

“Start your own Twitter then!” ... they do. “Google bans Parler, conservative Twitter. Apple gives them 24 hour notice to moderate more speech or be banned.”

They violated their contracts to be on the app stores. Remember that TOS are so powerful that now you can be forced to go into arbitration instead of courts.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#158
post #23

The man literally has a press office and a press staff. There are any number of outlets who will cling to his every word in order to praise or criticize it. I don't use twitter and seem to learn what is said. It is difficult to see what the problem is.

The problem isn't what happens when tech companies censor a very power man. It's that if they can censor a very power man, then there is no bounds on what they can and will do for less powerful people.

For social networks, the root of the problem is their quasi-monopoly status. We wouldn't accept Comcast deplatforming people.

It's a bad idea to set policy based on the worst examples. I can't see any harm in kicking Trump off twitter. He was basically begging for it. But should Trump's extreme actions be used to justify banning BLM protests because they sometimes turn violent? How about Hong Kong demonstrations? Didn't they storm a legislature? How about WSJ? They print people who believe in election fraud.

It's like using 9-11 to set all terrorism policy.

IMO--these actions should be an "emergency only" policy rather than Big Tech deciding it needs to police what we all hear and think. It's really not clear which its going to be.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#159
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also not even that. The discussion is if someone has to distribute a “free speech app”. The issue is a little more complex for Apple if/when they ban Parler, as you can’t (easily) side load apps on iOS. But Google only banned them from the Google Play store, thus limiting their distribution. You can still use the app, and side load to install. (I think this makes Android’s position a little more tenable here...)…

Yea. No one is complaining that the "Parler" website has been banned. The issue is can a competing product have a comparable offering, including a proper native application with notifications, and all of the features only allowed to be used via native API calls.

I'm not following... what is the competing product here?

Twitter?

Are you saying that Google should follow the same rules for Twitter and Parler? I think that the argument here is that they are applying the same rules -- if you don't moderate the content users post, you're out of the store.

Re: ACLU Counsel Warns of 'Unchecked Power' of Twitter, Facebook

#160
post #23

The man literally has a press office and a press staff. There are any number of outlets who will cling to his every word in order to praise or criticize it. I don't use twitter and seem to learn what is said. It is difficult to see what the problem is.

The problem isn't what happens when tech companies censor a very power man. It's that if they can censor a very power man, then there is no bounds on what they can and will do for less powerful people. For social networks, the root of the problem is their quasi-monopoly status. We wouldn't accept Comcast deplatforming people. It's a bad idea to set policy based on the worst examples. I can't see any harm in kicking T…

The way you’re using “censor” doesn’t accurately describe the situation. It evokes images of people being sent to the gulag for sharing samizdat but he’s not exactly silenced when he can have full coverage by the international media any time he chooses, and Trump’s accounts were not disabled for spreading conservative ideas but for inciting deadly violence. A private company exercising its rights under the contract he voluntarily made with them does not seem like something conservatives should be complaining about.
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