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Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

theguardian.com

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Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#41

Post by lwhi »

Chris2048 wrote: post #39
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #35

The article title purposefully leaves out the "emergency use authorization" part in order to drum up anger. I think that part should be put in. 11 other countries have joined in the emergency authorization so its not just a UK thing. This is not a pro/against post about Thiamethoxam. The studies seem a bit divided, and the UK banned out of abundance of caution from a European Food Safety Authority study, versus a lar…

I saw the title and immediately thought "is this gonna be BS". Turns out yes.

How's it been shown to be BS?

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#42

Post by lwhi »

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

Both things could be true.

Surely investment in monocrops is affecting wild bee population?

If the pesticides affect farmed bee populations, why shouldn't they in term have the same affect on wild bees? Isn't their physiology going to be the same (or very similar)?

I don't understand what you're trying to say?

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#43

Post by atoav »

Chris2048 wrote: post #39
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #35

The article title purposefully leaves out the "emergency use authorization" part in order to drum up anger. I think that part should be put in. 11 other countries have joined in the emergency authorization so its not just a UK thing. This is not a pro/against post about Thiamethoxam. The studies seem a bit divided, and the UK banned out of abundance of caution from a European Food Safety Authority study, versus a lar…

I saw the title and immediately thought "is this gonna be BS". Turns out yes.

Depends on the definition of "emergency". Surely the torries will hold their promise and enforce stricter nature protection standards than the EU — absolutely no doubt about it given their track record both when it comes to environmental protection and to keeping promises.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#45

Post by alsetmusic »

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

I was with you for a lot of this post. However, I'm curious how one can say that "Beekeepers as a service" are harmed and not wild bees. How would wild bees be distinct from harm? It's not like a virus that harms humans distinguishes populations. How does this harm one group and not the other?

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#46

Post by lwhi »

Anon1096 wrote: post #33
Sudophysics wrote: post #7

A society of advanced apes with a penchant for destroying their environment decides that a species that is necessary for their survival is better off dead because they don't care for a weird thing called science.

Smugly declaring that your side is based in the "science" and the other side isn't doesn't automatically make it true. The question of whether to allow a pesticide that kills bees is a public policy question, not one of science, though science can certainly be used to inform decisions.

Public policy?

Which world are you living in?

Sooner or later it becomes a question of survival.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#47

Post by [deleted] »

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

[deleted]

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#48

Post by kurthr »

40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

I see your position, and I agree that the problem is more complex than just pesticides are bad, but it's also more complex than saving sugar beets. If this were an invasive species (like murder hornets or malarial mosquitos) problem that could be stopped before it started or a temporary measure to prevent life and death (rather than wealth accumulation) for a significant number of people, I'd have more sympathy.

Application to sugar beets is expected to increase crop yields 13% on a non-critical crop, for a commodity (sugar) that can be easily imported. The virus problem won't ever go away. So this just sounds like subsidizing a particular local agricultural industry, because it's having a hard time competing right now. Will that ever change, why not choose bees or wildflowers over sugar beet farmers? Is it just because they can pay for lobbyists or positive news coverage?

Furthermore, it sounds an awful lot like the massive use of (the most advanced) anti-biotics in cattle feed lots to increase meat yield. That builds up immunity so that those last line of defense drugs are no longer useful to treat humans with deadly diseases. The key here is that there will be a state of permanent emergency where some new poison is always needed to keep profits at their previous artificially high level.

If the local industry can't compete, and it's not necessary other than for a small group's continued profit, maybe it's time to move on. The alternative is a possibly long term loss of pollinators (because the insecticide goes down streams) and the development of stronger/larger reservoirs of mites, moths, molds that could permanently affect all pollinators in England.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#49

Post by reportingsjr »

vcdimension wrote: post #25
Sudophysics wrote: post #7

A society of advanced apes with a penchant for destroying their environment decides that a species that is necessary for their survival is better off dead because they don't care for a weird thing called science.

Honey bee's are not native to Britain, and are not in any danger of disappearing because, like chickens, sheep, cows, and other livestock, we control their population; when demand or price of honey bee's is high beekeepers produce more, when it is low they produce less: https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/04/17/bee-apocalypse-was-neve...

Not sure how you came to that conclusion after reading that article. It states that honeybees (Apis mellifera) possibly originated in Asia and spread to Africa and Europe about 300,000 years ago.

Additionally, it is likely that honeybees are native to Britain: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250278609_Are_honey...

The greater issue here though is that if honeybees are affected, there are likely many other bee species and insects that are affected that we _aren't_ protecting.

Re: Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England

#50

Post by [deleted] »

alsetmusic wrote: post #45
40four wrote: post #34

I’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every ti…

I was with you for a lot of this post. However, I'm curious how one can say that "Beekeepers as a service" are harmed and not wild bees. How would wild bees be distinct from harm? It's not like a virus that harms humans distinguishes populations. How does this harm one group and not the other?

[deleted]
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