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You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

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Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#241
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me heddit.com looks like a parked domain that isn't serving any content, 3rd party or not, so isn't protected by Section 230 and doesn't need to be. Hypothetical examples aren't a great argument against real world situations that have already happened, but a fake example makes me suspect you aren't arguing in good faith.

This is a perfectly sound hypothetical. Do you only allow discussion with people who have experienced a direct hardship? Is that your line for moderation? I'm being antagonistic, but that's part of your 230 fix right? You want judges to draw the magical cutoff line. So what do you do about companies who run a shoestring budget? They can't play in this game?

No, but the previous comment looks just specific enough that it seems like they are trying to make an example look like it was a real life example (which would give it a lot of weight) when in reality it was a hypothetical example (which gives it less weight).

But to address the argument as a hypothetical, I don't think it's a fully developed argument. Fledgling companies with small user bases have very little liability by virtue of their small community. A platform with a small community can't be used to do harmful things like incite riots and encourage hate crimes unless you are targeting a specific demographic. And if you're targeting a specific demographic that is prone to doing harmful things then you should be moderating it from day 1. If you aren't targeting a dangerous demographic you have to get pretty big before your platform gets dangerous by size alone, and I do think it's reasonable to expect companies to have some moderation figured out before their platform gets so big that it's dangerous. Plus, a small budget doesn't give founders/developers an excuse to not know what their platform is being used for. Hypothetically, if your platform was small and you didn't realize you were catering to Nazis, then you are liable if those Nazis use your platform to organize an armed march/protest that turns into a riot and people get killed. Or at least I think you should be, and that's why I think that Section 230 should be repealed and replaced with something in the middle- not a blanket protection for companies that don't even try to moderate their content, but some protection as long as they are actually trying.

Also remember that not moderating your platform doesn't mean that bad things will definitely happen and that you will get sued- Section 230 only applies to civil cases already, and there must be some sort of grievance for someone to sue you. The cops couldn't proactively shut someone down for lack of moderation. So even without Section 230, a company could roll the dice while they were on a shoestring budget if they decided that it was worth it to delay developing a moderation system in favor of a different feature. That's in their right, they just ought to accept the idea that they might get sued if something bad happened because they prioritized work on shiny features.

So I guess what I'm saying is yes, I don't think a shoestring budget is a defense for giving a company protections. A new car company can't avoid a lawsuit from ignoring a known safety defect just with the excuse that they didn't have the budget. A startup that can't afford to do something right either shouldn't be doing it or they should accrue some risk.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does though. For example, it gives them the power to refuse to remove false information without being held responsible for it, which the first amendment does not give to publishers like the NYT.

That’s not true. The liability shield only covers content produced by other entities, e.g. tweets. Twitter is still liable for content it produces itself, such as fact checks and trend summaries. Likewise, the New York Times is liable for the articles published by its own writers, but it bears no liability for the comments section.

But the NYT can carry liability for letters to the editor published in its dead tree format -- see https://www.rcfp.org/supreme-court-will-not-hear-letter-edit... as an example of a local newspaper being held liable for letter-to-the-editor-published defamation.

The CDA draws a bright line between content "authored" by a firm and content "made available." In practice, that line is fuzzy.

As a hypothetical example, Twitter probably should face liability if it took a random tweet (say) accusing Bezos of pedophilia and made an editorial decision to promote that tweet to all its users, but it could still plausibly claim that it was just making the content available.

It's a complicated topic, and I don't know where the best balance lies.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does though. For example, it gives them the power to refuse to remove false information without being held responsible for it, which the first amendment does not give to publishers like the NYT.

That’s not true. The liability shield only covers content produced by other entities, e.g. tweets. Twitter is still liable for content it produces itself, such as fact checks and trend summaries. Likewise, the New York Times is liable for the articles published by its own writers, but it bears no liability for the comments section.

> The liability shield only covers content produced by other entities

That's what I meant, but you're right, I wasn't entirely clear. Thanks.

That's a protection that neither social media nor the NYT (for comments) would have without Section 230 if they do any moderation (at least according to Stratton Oakmont, Inc. v. Prodigy Services Co.)

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#244
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply wrong. It would mean platforms that don’t moderate have no liability. The law was created because a website that didn’t moderate was found to be not liable for the comments it’s users posted, and a website that did was found to be liable. This is even on the Wikipedia page for section 230. I guess the conclusion that repealing it would result in more censorship is based on the idea that platforms would…

It creates an incentive to improve moderation automation and reduce moderation costs. One way to do that is to verify users, which will help with our sock puppet and deliberate misinformation problems.

If you are concerned about the chilling effect of sites arbitrarily moderating user-generated content they find objectionable, just think about how much worse identity verification would be. Here on HN, people regularly create throwaway accounts so they can provide valuable insider accounts of things happening at companies where they work; that would never happen if they had to prove their identities first.

In fact, Twitter already does verify users for some accounts—that’s where the blue checks come from—and many of them are the most profligate misinformation peddlers. I think Twitter also requires new users to register with a phone number, and Google+ and Facebook both had/have real name policies, and none of that has done a thing to stem the flood of misinformation online.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there's a nuance there you're missing. Newspaper publishing is opt in; that is, anything published they chose to publish. Websites that allow third parties to post content on them is opt out; that is, anything published did so without initial moderation. If a website operator posts their own statements, they can theoretically be found to be libelous. They can't be held accountable for posts by other people. Newspa…

I understand the nuance you describe, but the situation I described is, at times, a problem with Section 230. For example: > When a US Army reservist found herself at the center of a conspiracy about the coronavirus earlier this year, her life was upended. > Hoax peddlers on the internet falsely claimed that Maatje Benassi was somehow the world's COVID-19 patient zero. Over time, conspiracy theorists posted at least…

But absent Section 230, YouTube would presumably be in a position where it couldn't take down any content that wasn't actually illegal in some way.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there's a nuance there you're missing. Newspaper publishing is opt in; that is, anything published they chose to publish. Websites that allow third parties to post content on them is opt out; that is, anything published did so without initial moderation. If a website operator posts their own statements, they can theoretically be found to be libelous. They can't be held accountable for posts by other people. Newspa…

I understand the nuance you describe, but the situation I described is, at times, a problem with Section 230. For example: > When a US Army reservist found herself at the center of a conspiracy about the coronavirus earlier this year, her life was upended. > Hoax peddlers on the internet falsely claimed that Maatje Benassi was somehow the world's COVID-19 patient zero. Over time, conspiracy theorists posted at least…

My understanding is that you would sue the person who originally posted the content. You can sue "John Doe" and subpoena the social media companies and internet service providers for information to identify the poster.

https://revisionlegal.com/internet-law/defamation-attorney/i...

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#247
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For what it's worth, "Defund the police" does literally mean "reduce funding to what we currently refer to as the police force" I think the relevant part is that one definition of "defund" is (from Google answer box/featured snippet, only provided definition): >prevent from continuing to receive funds. So some people upon first hearing the phrase "defund the police" understand it to mean "prevent the police from con…

So you thought there was a large group of vocal people who believed that literally zero law enforcement was a genuine wish?

I recollect a New York Times opinion piece called "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police."

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#249
post #210

This is an informative article, but it is missing a couple key things. Maybe the article was strictly aiming to be factual, but it felt like it was taking the position that 230 is good and should stay in place. With the assumption that it means to argue for keeping 230, they failed to convince me that it was a necessary piece of regulation. Yes, they corrected many misconceptions, but at the end of the day there is s…

It sounds like you're really just mad because the big companies don't moderate evenly enough for you. > replacing it with something that requires a reasonable level of moderation, or provides a little bit of protection for companies that have made a good attempt at moderation. That would be a much better incentive for companies than the incentive 230 currently provides. I'll bite. I think TW/FB have done a reasonable…

> It sounds like you're really just mad because the big companies don't moderate evenly enough for you.

You're actually not too far off. I'm mad that companies are protected unevenly relative to normal people, which allows them to moderate unevenly and have no risk of downside resulting from their decisions. A law which protects a company when they do no moderation, but sets no restrictions on who they can moderate is lopsided. My personal viewpoint is in favor of having some standard of moderation, but the inconsistency is frustrating. I lean towards moderation, but I think we ought to be choosing between the options of "some moderation standard/required" or "no moderation allowed," and not the current option which privatizes the gains and forces losses onto the public. If Facebook decides not to moderate a hate group, they get ad revenue from all that traffic. But if that hate group, which Facebook is enabling, organizes an event where they march through a city and beat someone up, then I think that person should be able to sue Facebook (as well as pressing criminal charges and suing the people that performed the beating). The person that got beaten up would still have to demonstrate to the court that Facebook played some role in enabling the beating, even without Section 230.

So where would I set the bar? I would set it at the level that a company isn't at fault if their platform has the right kind or amount of moderation that the bad event that happened was unusual or couldn't have been expected. If someone gets hurt because Facebook didn't police an openly Nazi group, they should be liable. If someone gets hurt because Facebook has decent moderation procedures in place but the Nazi group was sneaky and posed as a sports fan club and used coded messages, then I think Facebook would have a pretty easy defense even without Section 230.

And you make it seem like judges are wildly political and the legal system is unreliable. There are a few bad judges, but 99% of cases that would be brought in the absence of Section 230 are so openly shut that they would be settled before they went to court. And in the cases that went to court, most judges are good people and want to do the right thing, regardless of their political leanings. The political affiliation of a judge really only matters when an issue is close and tough to call. Let's not give wholesale protection to tech companies from all of the obvious and easily decidable cases where they should be held responsible just because we're worried about a few bad calls.

Re: You've Been Referred Here Because You're Wrong About Section 230 of the CDA

#250
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean if a sports fan comes into my forum about programming and starts making sports threads, I cannot moderate that away, or else face legal action? Does it also mean HN could face legal action according to its current rule set?

This is the definitive question that has to be asked of anybody proposing a repeal of 230. I personally dislike 230, and have from the beginning, but anybody who doesn't have a direct and complete answer to this question isn't being serious. edit: I personally think that the answer is to standardize terms-of-service documents and to make them into real legal statements that both the website visitor and owner can make…

I was a founding member of the egcs steering committee. When we were creating the rules, we had a debate over whether we should have a specific list of offenses that would allow us to ban someone: some wanted a specific list, others just wanted a supermajority to vote the person out. We settled on a 3/4 vote of steering committee members. I wrote the justification, saying that we shouldn't be stuck if someone came up with a new and creative way to cause damage.

And sure enough, we only banned one person ever. We banned him because he made a series of scary threats against the release manager, including "I know where you live", but these threats were made off-list, it was a campaign of personal harassment because no one wanted this idiot's patches. Suppose we had forgotten to include threats of violence off-list in our expected set of rules? And remember, we were talking about our mailing lists, which are forums according to section 230. So, would we lose our section 230 protections under your proposal?

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