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Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

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Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen it quite a bit over the last year in particular. Are the views being expressed popular? No. Are they "legitimate"? Yes. (what ever in the world that is supposed to mean, outside of being unlawful I would consider all speech legitimate even if I disagree with it, but not many people seem to like Voltaire these days I suppose.) I'm very disappointed that the rhetoric has devolved into "but they all deserved…

> what ever in the world that is supposed to mean I defined it. Intolerance is not a legitimate viewpoint. It is not the expression of an idea, but the suppression of someone else's. I think I was pretty clear, I consider intolerance the one viewpoint we cannot tolerate. Everything else is fair game.

My point is that you are then deigning someone to have the power to decide what is tolerant and what is not, when that is not nearly as acceptable or uncontroversial as you seem to be assuming. For example:

> If progressives are pushing for more freedom, more tolerance, then to oppose it you have to, by definition, advocate for less of those.

The framing of this is not correct. The problem is that not all "progressives" are pushing for that, which then undermines the assumption that opposition is therefor automatically intolerant and therefor automatically bannable/deplatformable. Some of the real progressives I follow such as Graham Elwood and Jimmy Dore have frequently had issues with their platforms giving them a hard time (demonteizing, etc) just because their positions or even topics of conversation are controversial, and many of them frequently mention they wouldn't be surprised to be deplatformed for said reason.

To me, the real crux of your position, is that by completely bucking the standard of free speech in which we have legal definitions for speech that isn't tolerable, positions like yours seem to want to expand those definitions (libel, defamation, imminent incitement to violence, etc) to a point that you must now designate some non-legal entitiy as the moral arbiter of what is intolerant/tolerable, and that is indeed a most slippery slope.

I think I have rewatched these two videos of Christopher Hitchens on the topic a good half dozen times each in the last year, and I keep thinking about their content. [1,2] From [2], I will link the timestamp of what I am about to quote [3]: "Whose going to decide? ... Who will you appoint? Who will be the one who says, "I know exactly where the limit should be, I know how far you can go, and I know when you've gone too far, and I'll decide that" Who do you think, Who do you know, who have you heard of, who have you read about in history who you would give that job?... Not for you, but for the people you are listening to and the peoples whose comments you hope to hear in return, for your own education, for your own elightenment, and for your own elucidation, as Mr. Paine says, commenting on Milton, one of the vices of those who would repress the opinions of others is they make themselves prisoners of their own opinions, because they deprive themselves of the means of changing them."

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2uzEM0ugY

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjhj9Hn8oQw

3. https://youtu.be/Tjhj9Hn8oQw?t=2590

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because they didn't follow the protocol necessary Texas followed the protocol, which included filing a motion for leave to file a bill of complaint in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court, however denied the motion. https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/do... https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/121120zr_p86...

Interesting, I thought all appeals to the USSC required moving through the federal court system first.

It's uncommon, but the Supreme Court also has original jurisdiction, "In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party." U.S. Const. Art. III. Here, Texas attempted to sue four other states over how they conducted their elections, so it fell under original jurisdiction.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#813
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good does that do you if the best hardware is locked down and they won't allow decentralized apps, though? If the web were invented today, there's not a chance in hell Apple would approve a web browser as an app. If you really think about that, I think you'll agree that current app store policies are harmful to innovation and harmful to society as a whole. At the end of the day, tech can only get you so far. You…

> there's not a chance in hell Apple would approve a web browser as an app Thankfully, there is a web browser. But corporations want us to use apps instead of web browser to restrict this. Like, everything must be an app. Every social network basically forces their app down your throat. "Ew you use a browser, what a loser"

Except Parler's app blows. It might as well be a web app. I guess it's hard to find talent when talented people don't want to work with right wing kooks.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#814
post #11

Someone brought an interesting perspective in another thread and I can't shake it off. The other side keeps deplatforming them. Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. We're not even listening to them, because it's science and they're *ists if they disagree. We're not debating anymore. We just assume we're right. We are slowly squeezing a significant segment of the populat…

I honestly think just splitting the US off might be a better thing than marching blindly into worsening civil divide. We're at a point wherein either side winning the presidency is just riling up the other side. Biden literally represents only his 55% of voters and Trump his 45% and when one side ones the other strictly loses, there's no feeling of compromise anymore. This is going to end in one side subjugating the other, and the right is arguing right now that's exactly what the left is doing to them through the means that you mentioned in your post. I think, eventually they'll respond to their perceived subjugation and the recent riot was just the peak of an iceberg.

They don't want to live a certain way but politics in general has been increasingly moving towards a national level, away from local politics. I can understand the right's belief that big city liberals are forcing left-wing values onto them because the left has expressed the same opinion about the right forcing values onto the left. The sentiment is mutual. And to some degree both sides are correct, there are definitely value systems that are forced from the top down (government), some may be good and some may be bad but that also depends on who you ask. And in the end neither side is happy.

Now obviously, tech companies are in their right to ban whoever they want for whatever they want. That's how the US operates even though I don't like it, and the right was happy to give businesses that power. But at a societal level it's clear we have an America with more than one identity and it's acting like a dysfunctional mental illness because we're forcing people together that don't want to be together. If the middle east is any indication that's a recipe for inevitable conflict.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#815
post #153
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. Well these last two seem pretty par for the course for illegitimate claims been promoted as legitimate. At a certain point the line of absurdity has been crossed at it is not the duty of society to constantly debunk illegitimate claims. > The other side keeps deplatforming them In this particular case, Parler has been host to a num…

Yes, that is what reddit, twitter and Hacker News reinforce constantly. It's either because it's true, or because the other side has been repeatedly discouraged from adding their two cents in those communities. I've been seeing the world through this lens for so long that I can't tell. I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels. It seems much more likely that I…

> I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels.

The reality is that most Trump supporters are focused on economics and governmental overreach, not race. They are angry that businesses are shut down, and people are unemployed. They are angry that, over the past several decades, production in this country has dropped to near-nonexistence. They are angry that the lockdowns have made it impossible, even in small towns and other places without significant Covid problems, to simply work and live their lives semi-normally.

Then, the straw that I believe broke the camel's back, is the way most conservatives view taxes and the "stimulus"

In short, the conservative view is that the US government took $2700 from every citizen (much more if you look at the long-tail economic effects) and 'gave back' $600. At the same time, even a cursory read of the omnibus spending would be enough to make anyone's blood boil, let alone someone who feels like they, or people they care about, have lost (or are losing) everything. It's easy to see how the phrase 'Taxation is theft' is picking up so much steam right now.

The entire time they are dealing with this, people call them a Nazi or White Supremacist. They get banned on Social Media for sharing (now verified by left-of-center Media) stories about Hunter Biden, or concerns about the election. To them, it feels like they are being silenced and oppressed. When the media/social media censors stories and information (and even raw footage) it increases tensions. 'Over the target' has become a phrase in common use for when someone is banned or a story gets censored that seems to go against the mainstream narrative.

The Hunter Biden story is one such example. When that story launched it was discredited and called fake news, today the same institutions who called it a lie are publishing that there is an FBI investigation into Hunter Biden. Many saw that story, saw the leaked photos (many of which are extremely unsettling), and then saw the story getting silenced and discredited.

Looking at comments on HN, a site where the average commenter has far above average education and income, it is easy to find people openly commenting that they do not care about the opinions of these people. They openly comment that 'anyone who would storm the capital is an idiot' or that these people are racist.

Finally, after all is said and done, the reaction from the left in Washington isn't to reduce tensions and try to reach peace. Nor is it to address the concerns of the people publicly. Instead, they are ramping up the tensions and saying that people are guilty of treason - a crime punishable by death. You have elected officials calling everyone who was there, whether they were violent offenders (criminals) or not, terrorists. Now, they're calling this riot 'as bad as 9/11' where thousands of Americans were killed.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#816
post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The First Amendment doesn't guarantee a successful platform. Not if you use someone else's. Not if you build your own. Nor does the First Amendment guarantee that exercising your freedom of speech will work out well for you. Circulation, reaction, lack of an overbearing editor---none of these are entitlements under our laws.

Who said anything about the First Amendment? To be a bit glib, we’re not talking about illegal government censorship, we’re talking about evil corporate censorship. It’s 100% perfectly legal for Apple to choose which apps it will sell on its store. Hey, sometimes I even like the decisions they make! But no longer can anyone legitimately respond to “XYZ got kicked off this platform” with “then XYZ should build their o…

When the subject is censorship in the United States, the First Amendment is going to come up! It's what underlies private parties' ability to control what they publish, rather than follow dictates from the government. Great-grandparent mentions laws.

As for other networks, I've used several that aren't big household names. They work fine. Some actually do "social" better, in my opinion. Some boast self-hosting and censorship-resistant features. None of them are popular. But many are cheap enough to run more or less indefinitely, given their small size.

I think "just build your own" is a perfectly valid response, since nobody's entitled to any of what a platform represents. If you send a newspaper an editorial and they refuse it, "start your own publication" or "print it up as a pamphlet" are just fine. So is just "no", without any free tips on next steps or alternatives. Nothing is owed. Nothing's delivered.

Back to the laws, there are others to keep in mind here. Not just as they sit on the books, but how they play out in practice. Nobody wants to be dealing with subpoenas, court orders, and lawsuits, even lawsuits they can probably get dismissed early on under 230, all the time. Nobody wants to be dealing with media scandals. That's what happens when crime starts happening on your servers. The costs are so high, and involvement so unpleasant, that most experienced operators tune their terms, policies, and algorithms to sweep very broadly, accepting a lot of false positives to avoid false negatives that eat up all their money and time.

From a certain point of view, I'm sure it seems Facebook and especially Twitter are seizing on illegality as a pretense for political ends. Taking that was a factor as a given, there's almost certainly some additional element of simple self-defense and cost-saving at work here. Even if you start a new platform that doesn't share their presumed political bias, the other factors will stay in play.

Unwillingness to face that explains many of the woes of specifically right-allied platforms in the last ten years. If you set yourself as "the alternative" for people the major platforms are happy to be rid of, you can end up with a user base with a really high percentage of people creating problems that are problems no matter what your politics happen to be.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#817
post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These groups became violent while still enfranchised. And they're still enfranchised: they can still vote, and still post to the internet, and still talk to people outside. They simply no longer get a free internet loud speaker to envangelize to others.

We've spent a couple years now (right?) tacitly approving rioting as an acceptable response to feeling disenfranchised. Now we're surprised when the same medicine gets used by others. For either side, I'm not sure it's proper minimize their complaints. If the BLM crowd says they have a serious problem with police violence, the best reaction is, "what can we do to restore confidence?" Similarly, when 40% of the countr…

> The lesson here is to condemn all rioting, set expectations that are equally applied to all segments of society.

I can't agree with this more. Through this event and what happened last year I can see how incredibly bias the media is when portraying protests and riots. During BLM, there's barely any coverage on the looting and destruction caused by "protesters" on mainstream media. There was a very clear attempt to downplay the severity of these actions.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#818
post #11

Someone brought an interesting perspective in another thread and I can't shake it off. The other side keeps deplatforming them. Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. We're not even listening to them, because it's science and they're *ists if they disagree. We're not debating anymore. We just assume we're right. We are slowly squeezing a significant segment of the populat…

> The other side keeps deplatforming them. Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. We're not even listening to them, because it's science and they're ists if they disagree. We're not debating anymore. We just assume we're right.

Not really. More like, they voted in 2016 and won and "the other side" raised concerns about manipulation of voters and attempted to go through proper democratic channels to change things--which failed, so they accepted it and moved on until other debacles prompted similar action, and again, "they" accepted the results of those democratic processes, just like the game is supposed to work. The mainstream media has taken "them" seriously since 2016 and hasn't shut up about them since. Their legal cases are rejected because unlike what "the other side" did in 2016, they aren't following the process properly, have no legitimate evidence to present, they are totally incompetent, etc.

> We are slowly squeezing a significant segment of the population out of public debate, and they are powerless to stop it.

The POTUS was their megaphone for 4 years. You are supposed to elect the person you feel best represents you and your interests. If "they" didn't do that, "they" shouldn't be trying to establish him as a monarch. "They" are traitors attempting to rob everyone that voted last year of their voice. Their turn with the microphone is up, but they refuse to yield it. Yes, the figurehead will no longer echo their ridiculous, conspiratorial, world view, so we are "squeezing them out" in a sense, but hey, it's called American democracy and it has worked that way for years.

They've had 4 years to deliver on their promises and win a second term. Guess what. They didn't. You know why? Because instead of delivering they ignored a deadly pandemic and let 369K Americans *die* and the economy crumble. Now is not the time to sympathize and "let the other side be heard" we've been doing it for 4 years and there's nothing worth listening to unless your ears are comforted by the melodious sounds of the collapse of the United States.

You're right, they're not scientists. And to regex away the things they actually believe (ists) instead of science shows that you don't really give the reality of what it actually means to be something like a, for example, racist the full weight it deserves. Being a racist means your beliefs actively lead to the disenfranchisement, or worse, direct violence on others, which also in turn eventually hurts you longer term (fyi).

I think part of the problem with politics in this country is this very tendency toward abstractions, false equivalences, forgetfulness, and tepidness in language. Stop pussyfooting around. Call a spade a spade. If we all stayed grounded and spoke extremely concretely about things, it'd be a lot easier to prevent fringe voices intermixing with moderate voices under the banner of of a single ideology whose elements can differ wildly in their extremities. The fact of the matter is, most people only care about the one or two issues they feel affect them the most in a given moment and rather than compromise and side with the platform that maybe doesn't give them what they want on that one issue but is generally better overall they refuse to do so and will sleep with the devil just to have their one need met, damn everything else. The planet could literally become a flaming ball of molten lava and eliminate all life on earth and certain constituents in the US would not give a damn as long as it meant abortion was illegal.

Here's roughly my theory of how American politics functioned over the past four years for several people in the "center right":

Guy A believes something relatively reasonable, e.g. "I don't want to get taxed too much."

Party L says, we want to help a bunch of people in the States out with free services. (Guy A thinks, hey that doesn't sound too bad), L continues, but to do it we need to tax you just a bit more than we do now. Guy A responds, well that sounded ok, but there's no way I'm letting you tax me more. Sorry.

Guy B comes along and believes something heinous. Let's say he's a classical anti-semite and thinks all Jewish people are criminal and the root of all evil, he hasn't gotten to the point of wanting genocide yet, but he's on the path.

Party R comes along. Party R says, we really care about guns. We want to make sure everybody can buy a gun, and here's why guns are great. Guy B likes this because he thinks he might need a gun in case he runs into a Jewish person. Guy A isn't a gun nut by any means but he wonders about taxes. Party R says they won't raise taxes at all, hell, maybe we'll lower them! Guy A is on board because even though Party L's initial proposition was more enticing, at least Party R won't increase his taxes.

Next thing you know the anti-semite and guy that just wants low taxes are both called "republican" or "on the right". Both their interests become intermingled and caught up in a narrative that stands to represent the entire "party". A candidate comes along that appeals to the intersection of these interests, maybe he says some things that make Guy A a little uncomfortable, but hey at least his taxes are low right? Soon enough the fringe beliefs of Guy B become a more dominant element in the "party line" since the candidate wanted to appeal to all the interests of his party.

And there you have it, Guy A becomes part of the anti-semitic party all because of his own stubbornness and refusal to compromise on a single point and then starts to feel attacked when "the other guys in Party L" start saying he and his guys in Party R are anti-semtic, because he isn't anti-semetic! But the attacks make him dig in more to Party R and gradually become more comfortable with supporting things that maybe would have bothered him before, like hating Jewish people, all because it's "his party" now and at least they still don't raise his taxes.

So yeah, Guy A might wind up feeling "unheard" in all of this and like he's being conflated with neo-nazis when he's not really a neo-nazi himself, but he made his decision. Taxes were so important to him that he turned a blind eye to moral issues and decided to double-down when those issues escalated and "be loyal". Don't feel sorry for these people. That's how representation works. It doesn't matter if you went with the neo-nazis because you want low taxes, you chose them to represent you, so you don't get to say "well I'm not really a neo-nazi because I just wanted low taxes", especially when you doubled down and are only bailing out in the final hour since you finally realize it's repudiate or go down with the ship and your flight mode kicks in. You may not be personally murdering people, but you are an enabler at that point. You made a stupid, amoral decision and you are culpable for that. You need to take responsibility for such a choice.

Now is not the time for sympathy toward "them". I did try to be sympathetic to the plight of this "unheard majority" in 2016. In 2021? Seriously? In order to even field such an argument after 4 years and a legitimate attempt to supplant the American flag for a flag with a single man's name on it seems to me completely delusional. Part of the reason things have gone this far is precisely because bad behavior has had zero consequences for this administration until maybe finally now. This president's incompetences has the death of 369k people and counting attached to it. Not to mention the jailed children, calls to foreign powers to help manipulate the 2020 elections, and deliberate lies to the citizenry about matters pertaining to their health (covid was supposed to "disappear" by Easter, remember?)

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#819
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further escalation beyond storming the capitol? Becuase that's what tolerance has resulted in.

This is extraordinarily tame in the scheme of American history. And as someone who lives in one of those areas of the country constantly scorned, belittled, and caricatured, I can say with confidence that you do not want those people to act in kind to Antifa. There's been a lot of living vicariously through Antifa/BLM lately with portions of society that want to "stand for something." It's the same mentality as peopl…

Man, are you bad at math. The urban areas account for over half of the population.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#820
post #11

Someone brought an interesting perspective in another thread and I can't shake it off. The other side keeps deplatforming them. Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. We're not even listening to them, because it's science and they're *ists if they disagree. We're not debating anymore. We just assume we're right. We are slowly squeezing a significant segment of the populat…

> I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels. It seems much more likely that I don't fully understand their perspective. Imagine: a leader calls for a certain racial, ethnic, or religious group to be barred entry to their country. This is a textbook example of racist policies. Half the population either - voted him because of those policies (and so are racist),…

>Imagine: a leader calls for a certain racial, ethnic, or religious group to be barred entry to their country.

A religious group is not a race. When China persecuted the Falun Gong, nobody called them racist. You could say it's islamaphobic, but that connotates an irrational fear. It's not completely irrational when the values of many adherents to that religion differ so significantly from secular American values: pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2011/01/18/stoning-adulterers/.

Fundamentally the difference between a religion and a race is that race is not controllable; it's clearly wrong to discriminate against somebody for something entirely outside of their control. But people do have control over their ideology, so much as some people would advocate discriminating against racists for their racist beliefs, people can advocate for discriminating against people who believe the legal system should sentence to death adulterers, apostates (people who leave their religion) and homosexuals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosex...).

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