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Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

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Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#511
Think about the second order effect of this one: Trump has lost a big megaphone using which he could have influenced 2024. He has had 4 years to clean up many of the things he has been doing but failed to do so. Kicking him off social media means at-least some of the fence-sitters won't be influenced anymore.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#512
While your High School Civics class said a lot of things, the reality is (most of) The Founders got together because they saw where things were headed and they were terrified of mob violence that was breaking out in the colonies. They worried that either the Brits would arrive a crush things, or the locals would turn on them with tar and feather.

So they got together and engineered a very weak democracy, unsure which direction it would go in. They left a lot of messy bits unresolved.

Twitter is a platform without an editor or oversight. It is a platform for mobs. Our Founders would have been terrified of it.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#513
post #44

This ban seems to heavily take advantage of the current moment, as it's obvious that he has tweeted worse things in the past. It's strange that they picked such a poor way to justify the ban when they could have made a significantly stronger case, and in doing so could have convinced millions more people that they are trying their best to apply policies evenly. For example, I have a hard time imagining why they chose…

[flagged]

It's highly unlikely that there were any members of Antifa among the rioters, and there is also no evidence of same.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#514
Trump has caused real damage to our society and democracy through his social media accounts. It is about time. Having said that, these actions ring hollow to me. He could have been banned a long time ago; this week's events are a culmination of brainwashing the weak through social media that has gone on for over four years. All of these Republican senators and representatives falling over each other to denounce him this week had the opportunity to remove him from office in February (or at least call witnesses at his Senate trial). They chose to remain silent, hoping that the political capital they built by supporting a dictator wannabe could be used for their own personal agenda. This week, they realized that wasn't going to happen, so fled like rats from a sinking ship, praying that they should save their tarnished political career or at least emerge with a shred of dignity. The timing is incredibly depressing, and Twitter's action feels the same to me.

I am an advocate for free speech and I hate to see mobs forming around people hoping to deplatform and "cancel" their enemies... but I learned this week that I have a lot to think about. It is sad to me that a veteran who served four tours of duty in the Air Force was shot dead in the United States Capitol, ending up in that unfortunate spot because of a constant barrage of misleading information from social media; literally egged on by the President of the United States.

We all have a lot of soul searching to do. I wish we didn't let it escalate to this point just to get some engagement numbers up.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#515
post #315

Does anybody have a solution to the bigger underlying question of de-platforming and censorship on online platforms? As far as I can tell, there are two general viewpoints: a) Censorship is bad, free speech is good. You should counter bad arguments with better arguments. b) There are types of speech, which are proven to lead to violence in the long-run. Also, some things can be proven as untrue. Lies are bad. I have…

I'm squarely in group b, however, I don't think it's an actual dichotomy in the way you present it. I think American's fetishize "free speech" which leads to a "hyper group a" that argues since censorship is scary (which it is) we'd rather face any other conceivable consequence rather than wrestle with the hard questions of what is appropriate vs. inappropriate public speech. I believe we're seeing examples of where…

> I think American's fetishize "free speech"

I find something deeply satisfying about the idea of someone generalizing 333-million people in one comment, using the word "fetishizing" to describe their view of a principle which has generally been regarded as essential to the vast majority of advances in human rights anywhere progress has been made, and while commenting thusly has done so all in the service of making the central point that it is they who overly-value free speech.

> Group b folks, such as myself, are not saying that we're concerned about dinner conversations. We're concerned about speech that is being amplified in a way where there's a civic responsibility to ensure that the harmful messages are not being amplified.

So public speech should be further limited, provided La Résistance is still permitted to speak freely as we enter an era with an ever-increasing number of state-aligned location-aware microphones in homes, workplaces, vehicles, pockets and (on) wrists?

What could possibly go wrong in that scenario?

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#518
post #293

Sorry to go off-topic, but is anyone else logged in to HN and experiencing very slow response times? Except for the times HN has gone down, I've never seen it take 5-10 seconds just to load the front page or any of the comment threads. I'm assuming it has something to do with so many users checking out this thread, which is pretty amazing for a Friday night. (viewing HN in logged out mode is much faster thanks to the…

HN is hugging itself to death.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#519

Does anybody have a solution to the bigger underlying question of de-platforming and censorship on online platforms? As far as I can tell, there are two general viewpoints: a) Censorship is bad, free speech is good. You should counter bad arguments with better arguments. b) There are types of speech, which are proven to lead to violence in the long-run. Also, some things can be proven as untrue. Lies are bad. I have…

> Is there a proper answer for someone like me?

Honestly, I don't think there is one. The problem with A is that it will lead to violence, anarchy, or brutal dictatorship if left completely unchecked and certain groups start to counter (verbal) arguments with death threats and violence.

There is a school of thought that says that a free society has to accept this and basically live with the fact that it's constantly in danger due to this.

But even this school of thought has one fatal flaw - its proponents lacked the information that we have now. Social media enabled psychological mechanisms that prior to its inception and widespread use were really hard to trigger.

In the 20th century, mobilising the masses was hard work and required a lot of resources (printing was expensive, organising large rallies to reach many people was expensive and dangerous, ...)

Today, everybody can - even without owning a smartphone or a computer or having internet access - reach literally billions via social media (e.g. by using an internet café). A single Facebook post or Whatsapp message can lead to riots and mobs that kill people [1].

These are means of communications and psychological effects that are simply unprecedented in human history. We opened Pandora's Box without even realising it.

When the US constitution was written, no one had social media in mind when they wrote about free speech. The very concept that a single man could within the blink of an eye spread their message to half of mankind, unchecked, without any immediate consequences, completely anonymously was just unthinkable.

The amplifying effect of digital echo chambers that suppress dissenting thought and nip constructive discourse in the bud, was yet unknown. FOMO and social media addiction didn't even enter the scientific community until just five or so years ago.

It's a really complex and difficult problem and I would love to see some constructive discussion about what to do with it (especially in the mainstream media) - preferably without reducing it to an unfruitful us-vs-them.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/02/21/how-misin...

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#520

Does anybody have a solution to the bigger underlying question of de-platforming and censorship on online platforms? As far as I can tell, there are two general viewpoints: a) Censorship is bad, free speech is good. You should counter bad arguments with better arguments. b) There are types of speech, which are proven to lead to violence in the long-run. Also, some things can be proven as untrue. Lies are bad. I have…

We have no right to Twitter's platform. Maybe if the US made a messaging platform we could complain about government censorship on there.
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