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Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

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Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#101
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard not to view this sort of stuff as saber rattling (or, more accurately, whining) from the OSHW community. TI is more than happy to work with you on their most cutting edge designs if you're shipping in appreciable volume. Talking a quarter million chips or more per year. That's just the way the wind blows in their business. Gotta recoup as much R&D expenditure as possible up front. I've worked with them on t…

What makes you think it's the OSHW community? If TI will work with you only if you're high vol then I could see a lot of smaller businesses seeing this tactic working against them too.

In TI's eyes - that is, through the lens of order volume and support needed by the customer from TI - the difference between a single small business building HW and a single OSHW is negligible.

They get way more ROI by heavily supporting bigCos who will give them millions of dollars of business YOY rather than helping a zillion mom and pop shops who can barely wire a resistor the right way.

Think of it as a tacit strategy of "firing your worst customers". Having worked in bigCo vs small Co, there are a lot of small Co and OSHW EEs who barely have a clue what they're doing. It's not worth TI's time or money to help these people out. Upleveling lousy engineers thru support only to net them a 10 piece part order, is a really lousy ROI. (Unless of course we're talking an ASIC or some other astronomically high ROI custom piece. But, I'm assuming that we're not, because I don't work for a military prime contractor.)

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#102
post #7

I don’t understand why chipmakers seem to always restrict access to documentation on chips. Their competitors will get it anyway. This only creates more problems for small developers.

> This only creates more problems for small developers.

This is exactly why: to stop small developers from buying them. There are three types of components in the electronics world to my observation.

1. Components for the general public (e.g. opamps, microcontrollers, power supply controllers) - the datasheets are publicly available. This is probably 70% of the marketplace.

2. Components for the OEM - Some components are only meant to be sold to OEMs in huge quantity. For example, a company may sell $1 LCD controllers, if such a company is only interested in selling to huge manufacturers for big money, they often classify their datasheets as "confidential" - it's a joke, the only purpose is stop small developers from wasting their time. Whether it's a Type-2 part heavily depends on the company. For example, a big U.S. semiconductor company may sell it to the general public, but a cheap Taiwanese vendor often classifies all the information as confidential.

3. Security through obscurity. If the chip contains unique or advanced technology, for example, the latest generation of NAND flash or SoC, the datasheet is classified to make it more difficult for other people to do market research. Similarly, the payment card and consumer DRM vendors essentially own the security chip industry, selling channels of the chip and availability of the datasheets are tightly controlled.

Type-2 and Type-3 are responsible for the most frustrating experience. If you are an independent kernel hacker who wants to port Linux to a new gadget, not being able to get the datasheet of the $1 LCD controller because it's "confidential" is a real headache.

But as I mentioned previously, Type-2 chips are not really secret - the confidentiality is only meant to stop small developers from bothering them. Thus, the chips themselves can usually be found for sale on the Shenzhen electronics marketplace, and it's often possible to find numerous leaked datasheets on the web. You can also reverse engineer consumer gadgets as a reference design. For example, Realtek Ethernet controllers, 100% of the public datasheets are leaked by insiders. If it's not, sometimes getting the datasheet may be possible you do some social engineering, "we are prototyping a new product based on the LCD controller chip, now our problem is register xxh..."

On the other hand, if it's Type-3, don't even think about it.

The vast majority of products by TI are Type-I: Usually all technical documentation is provided on the website, with schematics, PCB layouts, and reference designs (unless it's a specialized chip for a particular application). I recently used a TI chip in my design just because of the availability of documentation.

> Here is TI DMCAing a bunch of random datasheets. Completely jellybean stuff like 555s, 74xx logic, and op-amps. Nope nope nope nope. This is crazy.

These chips don't even belong to the Type-2 category. It's unreasonable to send DMCA takedown notices in terms of security-through-obscurity. The only explanation I can see is TI's overzealous corporate policies.

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#103
post #2

Using copyright tools to try to contain published documentation of facts about anything is roughly where, if possible, I boycott anything involved with that company to the maximum reasonable extent. It is clear that TI no longer has an interest in developing new products, or figuring out better ways of making existing products, and would instead like to rent-seek and make the world a smaller place.

I remember the "golden age" of chip makers in the 80s giving a bookshelf of datasheets to every engineer who asked. (At the time, if you mailed a circuit design to an inside rep, he would also mail you all the chips for free to build it, regardless of price.) Since then, some mfgs. have been restricting datasheets to avoid potential patent litigation. This might be the case here. Possibly another example of death by…

Computers in the 80s also came with schematics that showed users how to repair, modify and extend their system. I've seen videos of people hooking up their electronics projects to a C64.

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be a legacy culture thing? If you’ve ever dealt with traditional broadcast vendors it’s the same thing there, impossible to get even basic documentation and manuals without having an authorized account in most cases. Really is frustrating when you try to shop around for a new setup and all you can get is marketing material.

On the contrary, this is not legacy, it is a new fashion. The electronics and computers industries have been built initially based on free detailed documentation from all the manufacturers of components. When I was a student in electronics, I learned more from datasheets and application notes than from most university manuals. All companies continued to provide good technical documentation until close to the year 200…

> The only positive effect that the NDA may have for a producer is that it might prevent the already existing customers to redesign their products, because they might not bother to obtain similar NDA from other vendors.

That's a positive from their competitors requiring an NDA, not for they requiring one.

Anyway, large software sellers benefit a lot from stupid procedures from their clients that create a huge cost to start buying from a new supplier (like passing all suppliers through legal or having a management vote for them). If all hardware manufacturers require NDAs, they can force their buyers into creating similar procedures, closing the market for new entrants.

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it necessary to have layers of NDAs on a product datasheet? Many of the people who might write software to integrate with some hardware are not the people manufacturing high-volume products based on it! Because obscuring the use case and the customer of a cutting edge chip is a semiconductor company's most reasonable moat these days. If you telegraph what big customers are buying by freely sharing your most cu…

>Software is a commodity that TI distributes as a compliment to the thing that actually makes them money, which is selling chips. ... For processors and peripherals that require drivers, it's a cost of doing business for them - not an enabling feature. It's a cost of doing business that would be ameliorated by telling people how to use the product, because then they're not the only ones able to do the work. I'll use…

It's a cost of doing business that would be ameliorated by telling people how to use the product, because then they're not the only ones able to do the work

...if you're talking about processors, sure. But only talking about processors gives a really narrow view of TI's business, and doesn't add any context into why they sell the way they do. They make a ton of money on analog applications that require no OSSW support at all. They know how to sell chips that way - they've been doing it for fifty plus years. They are an analog company that didn't get into the processor business until comparatively recently. I'm sure a bunch of this cloak and dagger around datasheets is legacy holdover from an analog sales world. They know what they are doing in that department, without doubt.

As to why they're DMCA'ing someone for a 50 year old datasheet - I'd guess it's as simple an explanation as someone in Legal carrying out their boss's mandate. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand hardware vendors not actively working with you on designs unless you're buying in volume. That's fine, they're a business, they have to make money and not lose money. What I don't understand about the hardware industry is the extent to which they actively restrict access to information on how their product works unless you're buying in volume. Why is it necessary to have layers of NDAs on a product d…

The datasheets are under NDA because they give each volume customer a different datasheet. You go to a sales call and say you want X, and then their engineering department prepares a datasheet saying that their product supports X. (Obviously the hardware supports X, but it may be kind of broken, so it's easier to tell customers that don't ask for it by name that it's not there.)

An excellent point.

Alternatively, some customer pays an absurd amount of money to add Function X to the chip, and pays a premium to be the only customer who can use Function X.

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#107
post #29

I once got a DMCA takedown request (well, Wikipedia did because of my edit) from Texas Instruments for the following numbers: p = B709D3A0CD2FEC08EAFCCF540D8A100BB38E5E091D646ADB7B14D021096FFCD q = B7207BD184E0B5A0B89832AA68849B29EDFB03FBA2E8917B176504F08A96246CB d = 4D0534BA8BB2BFA0740BFB6562E843C7EC7A58AE351CE11D43438CA239DD9927 6CD125FEBAEE5D2696579FA3A3958FF4FC54C685EAA91723BC8888F292947BA1 which can be used to s…

Why not just add 1 to the number (and mention it in the text)? When this fails, add 2, and so on.

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#108
post #7

I don’t understand why chipmakers seem to always restrict access to documentation on chips. Their competitors will get it anyway. This only creates more problems for small developers.

> This only creates more problems for small developers. This is exactly why: to stop small developers from buying them. There are three types of components in the electronics world to my observation. 1. Components for the general public (e.g. opamps, microcontrollers, power supply controllers) - the datasheets are publicly available. This is probably 70% of the marketplace. 2. Components for the OEM - Some components…

This is an exceptionally crisp explanation.

TI is great to work with on Type 1 chips. They're nowhere near the worst in the Type 3 category. (Looking at you, Qualcomm and Marvell.)

I totally agree that the DMCA notices issued don't make much sense, given this context. I just get irritated by OSHW folks acting like their business means something to TI. They are ants crying in the footprints of elephants.

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#109
Copyright was designed to further human civilization as now become one of if not the greatest threat to the advancement of human civilization.

Copyright must be reworked,and reduced. back to AT MOST the original 14 years plus 1 extension of 14 year to the original human creator (not a company)

Failure to do this will continue to see humanity limited in our growth

Re: Texas Instruments sent a DMCA takedown to a site archiving data sheets

#110
post #2

Using copyright tools to try to contain published documentation of facts about anything is roughly where, if possible, I boycott anything involved with that company to the maximum reasonable extent. It is clear that TI no longer has an interest in developing new products, or figuring out better ways of making existing products, and would instead like to rent-seek and make the world a smaller place.

That was clear when Nokia fell and took down TI's OMAP processors with them and they just gave up to Quallcomm's Snapdragon without even putting up a fight. TI is now just rentseeking on their ananlog dominance and whatever sinking boat Intel is, TI is way worse.

TI is about 10 years ahead of Intel, but rest assured we will be commenting on threads about Intel doing things like this in 10 years or less
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