Signal WhatsApp Chats Import • Hacker News Board

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#91

Post by antirez » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

actuator wrote: post #81

antirez wrote: post #73

That's funny. People use Whatsapp because outside US and Asia is the worldwide de facto standard for messaging. The new TOS does not state that Whatsapp is going to read your messages, actually even the non-techo-savvy population in Europe knows that Whatsapp uses end-to-end encryption (they just know that "it cannot be intercepted"), so they use it for good reasons, and will continue to do so, because 99% of people…

Regarding your other point, while you are theoretically right that this is a dangerous precedent. But I think this week's events were extraordinary. At the end of the day humans are running these platforms and it becomes very hard to ignore developments like these. As much as I love free speech we have seen throughout the world that there is a real human cost to not censoring these things.

I agree that it was extraordinary and extremely worrying, but:

+ Trump is not running out of channels to speak, just who supports him will believe he is censored and will develop a deeper attachment to him. Democracy works when you are able to understand somebody is fool even if you can read what they write.

+ Twitter censored his tweets partially even before what happened recently. When he claimed he didn't lost elections.

+ This time we believe it was acceptable because our political views here in HN, mostly are aligned with the ones of folks running social platforms. Next time it may be different.

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#92

Post by antirez » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

dotdi wrote: post #86

antirez wrote: post #73

That's funny. People use Whatsapp because outside US and Asia is the worldwide de facto standard for messaging. The new TOS does not state that Whatsapp is going to read your messages, actually even the non-techo-savvy population in Europe knows that Whatsapp uses end-to-end encryption (they just know that "it cannot be intercepted"), so they use it for good reasons, and will continue to do so, because 99% of people…

My dude, the new TOS stipulate that "you grant WhatsApp a royalty-free, transferable license to use, reproduce and derive works from data you upload, send, ..."[0], which makes no sense at all if WhatsApp/Facebook did not have a way to decrypt the things people send via WhatsApp. [0]: https://twitter.com/FSFTamilnadu/status/1346864102698754050

I think that the TOS is just terribly written and opaque, and that in the next weeks we will receive clarifications about the fact messages are protected. Otherwise if it will be the case that FB can read messages, the matter will be very different and I will agree on the switch. But so far to imply this looks far fetched.

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#93

Post by kangalioo » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

elaus wrote: post #23

plibither8 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there any reason provided for the removal? I think it should in fact be essential in EU where they must follow. GDPR regulations and allow users to export their data easily.

There is a pending patent dispute with Blackberry and a German court ordered them to remove the chat export for German users.

For anyone wondering about the specifics:

"For example, there was a dispute about whether Whatsapp uses a technology that Blackberry holds a patent on when sending a chat history to a third party via email."

(translated via Deepl, source https://t3n.de/news/gericht-verbietet-apps-whatsapp-1231364/)

The actual legal claims are in this document: http://docs.dpaq.de/13322-031127684372.pdf

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#94

Post by moxie » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

A lot has changed since 2014, and this might actually be possible now. It could be tough to do this right and figure out what to do with the edge cases like importing a WA conversation that overlaps with an existing Signal conversation, or handling things like quoted replies, but this could be a fun project if anyone here wants to take a shot at coding it up.

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#95

Post by upofadown » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

actuator wrote: post #64

This is blowing up quite big now and I have managed to shift a lot of my friends to Signal now, I wonder if WhatsApp will go back on its decision. As we stand now even Signal is not safe because of the business model. I wonder what's the model on messaging apps that will work. I don't want the OS creators to own the messaging platforms as well by virtue of subsidising it through OS/hardware.

>I wonder what's the model on messaging apps that will work.

Federated. History has shown that any system that puts control in the hands of one entity eventually ends up bad.

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#96

Post by nucatus » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #46

_l4jh wrote: post #19

I have been using Signal for two years now and I love it. However I really, really hope they can work on a good backup and restore process as losing my message history because I have to reinstall the app on my desktop[1] or have to reset my phone is a horrible experience. Just build an encrypted blob and zip it up and pop it on my iCloud or Google Drive or leave it local and let me deal with it but I need something .…

> However I really, really hope they can work on a good backup and restore process as losing my message history because I have to reinstall the app on my desktop[1] or have to reset my phone is a horrible experience. I've tried to report bugs and talk to developers about this but there's one fundamental problem here - the Signal team fundamentally does not value chat history the same way a lot of people do. They thin…

If history is not something to care about, then what is the point of importing WhatsApp history?

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#97

Post by herbstein » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

Lutger wrote: post #80

izacus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However I really, really hope they can work on a good backup and restore process as losing my message history because I have to reinstall the app on my desktop[1] or have to reset my phone is a horrible experience. I've tried to report bugs and talk to developers about this but there's one fundamental problem here - the Signal team fundamentally does not value chat history the same way a lot of people do. They thin…

Really? I can't believe that. I mean, in a sense, all software is just a vehicle for the data it processes, and the actual value lies in the data - not the software. That data is chats for Signal. If they think that's worthless, even just the history of it, it means they don't really value their own application. They are wrong.

The Signal protocol is forward-secret. I don't know the nitty-gritty specifics of the protocol, but the essence is this:

You don't want someone getting access to your account two years from now to be able to access every old message. Consider every message a separate object that gets encrypted. The keys are changed/updated each time a new device is added to an account. That new device only knows the new key(s), and thus can only decrypt new messages.

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#98

Post by soneca » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

plibither8 wrote: post #21

soneca wrote: post #15

It is cool that this exists, but losing WhatsApp chat history is common enough (changing from Android to iOS, failing to keep backup up to date then buying new phone, losing, having it stolen, etc) that I don’t think it is a relevant barrier for changing apps.

I seriously can't understand why a billion dollar company with hundreds of engineers can't and won't prioritize the abilitynto seamlessly transfer messages cross-OS. Its been years since the need for such a "feature", when it shouldn't even be a "feature" in the first place, it should be baked in!

I agree. It should not be that seamless since it needs explicit consent to break end-to-end encryption. But to force you to use iCloud or Google Drive for backup is weird. They should have a proprietary format and hosting for it.

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#99

Post by simias » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #59

izacus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However I really, really hope they can work on a good backup and restore process as losing my message history because I have to reinstall the app on my desktop[1] or have to reset my phone is a horrible experience. I've tried to report bugs and talk to developers about this but there's one fundamental problem here - the Signal team fundamentally does not value chat history the same way a lot of people do. They thin…

I doubt they think you are wrong - they just don't value it themselves personally, and lack empathy for their users who have different values.

Signal's devs, for better or worse, are very opinionated. If you don't do it moxie's way then you're doing it wrong. I was once shut down on HN by the Signal posse because I said that I'd like to have a Signal client library that I could use to write my own custom lightweight client. Apparently I'm not worthy and clearly incapable of writing secure code. Meanwhile I have to use that crappy, gigantic official electron app that cost them at least one serious security vulnerability in the past (JS injection, if memory serves).

If you want to make a nerdy niche chat client that's probably a good mindset, but if you hope to appeal to the masses you'll have to put some water in your wine eventually. I managed to convince a couple of my groups to migrate away from WhatsApp lately, but unfortunately always towards Telegram. Signal is just not there yet if you want a drop-in replacement.

Re: Signal WhatsApp Chats Import

#100

Post by tapia » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #69

actuator wrote: post #64

This is blowing up quite big now and I have managed to shift a lot of my friends to Signal now, I wonder if WhatsApp will go back on its decision. As we stand now even Signal is not safe because of the business model. I wonder what's the model on messaging apps that will work. I don't want the OS creators to own the messaging platforms as well by virtue of subsidising it through OS/hardware.

"As we stand now even Signal is not safe because of the business model." ? Ok, good, but you do realize that this is the most existential concern of them all? Why does FB so aggressively pursue personal data? For advertising. Because 'that's the business model'. Do you think that any entity would be in that position if say, people were willing to actually pay $3/month for what seems to be very obviously a highly usef…

But that is the thing. WhatsApp used to be a payed app, and the promise was that they would never sell our use your data for adds. Then they sold to Facebook and broke that promise. I used to pay for WhatsApp because I believed them then. And it got big because of many people did that too. That is the thing that I found the most insulting about WhatsApp now.