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Poll: Do you support software patents?

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311–319 of 319 posts

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory that shouldn't be patentable. What John Carmack is describing is something that is obvious to a craftsperson in the field. OTOH it does still preclude John from being presented with a problem and then doing someone quite ingenious to do a great solution that seems actually quite "novel", to learn that someone else did it years before. But for patents, if you follow logical steps from a given problem then yo…

> In fact the way patents should work is that the patent officer spends a week trying to solve said problem themselves. Does that really sound at all scalable (or even reasonable) to you? I imagine that many of the proposals that move through the patent office are highly contextual and may be simple ideas wrapped up in daunting language. It seems reasonable that it would take far more than a week to even get your arm…

There's a very nice counter argument to the objection of obviousness: if a given invention was obvious to the skilled man at the time of the application, and the invention is useful then why can't you find it in the prior art?

Basically the argument, which I find quite compelling on one level, is that truly obvious stuff is known and citable. Very simply novel inventions can seem obvious once they are presented to you. I found this a lot examining patents - they would often seem obvious but nonetheless be absent entirely from the prior art.

However, to answer some of the proposed solutions there is also the aspect of presentation of the invention to the public domain. That is, even if it were possible for an engineer ("the notional skilled man in the art") to create a close enough solution if they are set to work on a problem this does not provide a reason not to provide some form of patent protection.

The deal is that for disclosure of a workable, industrially applicable invention that a limited monopoly is granted. The monopoly does not only reward but also encourages. Whether others could solve a problem is not necessarily relevant to rewarding those who have addressed it and solved it. Do you see. You want to motivate progress in the relevant arts by rewarding those who solve problems in those arts by the sweat of their brow.

Re ability of patent officers: a judge can watch ice skating and tell you if the people fall over, if their toe-step is dramatic interpretation of the music or them tripping, if their Salchow is wobbly, if their outfits breech regulations, etc., but possibly barely ice skate themselves.

That said in the UK at least there is a good deal of art-specific expertise so much so that the patent office makes a substantial income hiring their examiners out to large companies to do "commercial searches". Mind you when we assessed international searches for the US ones were nearly always useless and had to be re-done (WO patents entering the national phase would sometimes have pre-existing examinations by foreign examiners, usually US or EPO).

>"more useful as engineers"

I don't think people stop being engineers because they become patent officers. That said they probably would be more use to the human race using their skills in a more directly constructive way but this assumes a lot about the world that just isn't going to happen. When there's no greed and everyone works for the greater good then we'll have no need for patent officers.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you're trolling, or you're unaware that there were close to 500,000 patent applications filed in 2009 alone[1]. Let's say you have 500 able critics; that puts us at 1,000 patents to review per officer per year. Let's assume any given officer can review an application within one week with reasonable efficacy; it'll take ~20 years to review one year's worth of applications (1000 / 50; I excluded two weeks for va…

The obvious rhetorical question here is: Who seriously believes that there have been 500,000 inventions worthy of being patented in 2009? The sheer volume makes it clear that the vast majority of patent applications are for trivial stuff. The system is broken, it's that simple.

Can you imagine there is one new invention that pertains to your job each year? Now consider the number of different jobs there are. Now consider the vast number of other activities outside of work.

Or think of it this way, a mobile phone: it could have novel programming, novel chips, novel screen design, hinge, case plastic, button return springs that last longer, easier to use touchscreen, stronger glass, more flexible, brighter, etc., any of these things might give it the market advantage. How many other things do you use each day, each of them could potentially be improved and that improvement be registered in a patent.

The parent spoke of applications for patents anyway. Granted patents in the US are apparently about 40% of this.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#314
post #4

With this type of support for abolishing software patents from the people who write the software ; it seems we must be able to organize some sort of strike to just put an end to it immediately.

You can't because programmers aren't in control of themselves. The ones who have enough cash and power are more than willing to continue with the present system or they cash out and leave someone else to do the work of opposing it.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#315
post #314
post #4

With this type of support for abolishing software patents from the people who write the software ; it seems we must be able to organize some sort of strike to just put an end to it immediately.

You can't because programmers aren't in control of themselves. The ones who have enough cash and power are more than willing to continue with the present system or they cash out and leave someone else to do the work of opposing it.

You could make the same argument for any strike though, and many of them have been successful.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#317
post #237
post #235

I find the results surprising. More than 500 points for software patents in some form? On HN? I'm not saying, that arguments for software patents are all wrong. And I'm excited about the discussion. But again, I'm surprised...

It's worth noting that at the moment nearly 2400 people flat out want all software patents abolished. Plus, lumping the other options in together isn't necessarily fair. Revoking existing software patents would have some pretty severe effects on legitimate companies and their shareholders. And the "other changes" is extremely vague - one could assume that other changes includes placing the onus on the company applyin…

True. But I still can't help being surprised about the results. Maybe, thats because here in Germany, suggesting software patents has almost become non political correct. At least, thats my perception.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a native English speaker and I don't generally understand patent texts. In fact, I've filed quite a few patents and have always been amazed that I give something readable to a lawyer to write up and they turn it into something that I can't understand any more. The idea that a patent is the medium through which an author shares their invention with the world is rather perverse. So I agree; coding around patents is…

I have seen quite a few people who have filed patents state that they don't understand their own patents and (as a general statement) I find this puzzling. A patent has 3 main sections (a) background and prior art (b) description of the invention and (c) the claims. The claims in particular are indeed technical and difficult for a lay person to readily understand. But the background, the prior art and the description…

Yet the only things that matters are the claims.

Re: Poll: Do you support software patents?

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they could file for the patent after you have done the work. You then have the hassle and expense of proving that your work came first and even then such cases often don't go the way they should.

You could still lose that fight, even if your work came first, if you never published it or filed a patent for it. First to invent only holds if you reduced it to practice (either by actually inventing the thing, or boiling it down so someone reasonably skilled in the art could then invent it) within that year. You lose rights to it after that if someone else wants to patent it. There's also first to conceive stipula…

The US is trying to make that transition. The bill passed the Senate, and Committee in the House, and goes to a full House vote in June 2011. But it will likely be difficult for the two bills to match and be agreed upon because of all the other crap in the bill which has good stuff and bad (much like the overwrought SBIR reauthorization bill that can never seem to pass and it just extended ad infinitum). I like the "first to file" idea, but it puts the small inventor at a disadvantage. The main benefit is that it will hopefully lubricate university tech transfer offices. No more "oh I'll put in a disclosure and wait and see, I'm safe." it'll incentivize the inventors to file a provisional as soon as possible. But of you're building (or hacking) something in your garage you'd better get a patent attorney quick. And be patient, because response times on a first-to-file system will be horribly slow even compared to today's glacial system.
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