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Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

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Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#251

Post by collyw »

lackbeard wrote: post #47

Example masters: John Carmack, Jeff Dean, Bram Cohen. What do they do? I think they're all extremely effective at getting things done. So be smart, hard working, and laser focused on shipping. A long time ago I saw a good talk by Jonathan Blow wherein he made a point that really resonated with me. The point was that to get good at programming you need the experience of shipping a lot of programs and thus you should o…

To play devils advocate. Perl 6 is an example of where not shipping was a major contributor to the decline of the language. Shame, as it looks interesting.

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#252

Post by lizmat »

collyw wrote: post #251
lackbeard wrote: post #47

Example masters: John Carmack, Jeff Dean, Bram Cohen. What do they do? I think they're all extremely effective at getting things done. So be smart, hard working, and laser focused on shipping. A long time ago I saw a good talk by Jonathan Blow wherein he made a point that really resonated with me. The point was that to get good at programming you need the experience of shipping a lot of programs and thus you should o…

To play devils advocate. Perl 6 is an example of where not shipping was a major contributor to the decline of the language. Shame, as it looks interesting.

If you think it looks interesting, you should have a look at Raku (https://raku.org using the #rakulang tag on social media). Looks familiar? It should be, as it is the new name of Perl 6. It now also comes with an IDE (https://commaide.com) if you're so inclined :-)

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#253

Post by asdffdsa »

conductr wrote: post #147
arcticbull wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of what it means to be a senior engineer is that you have a mastery over the soft skills/people skills commensurate with your engineering abilities. Someone who knows how a bridge should be architected but cannot navigate the politics of city council necessary to get it built isn't much of a bridge builder. The importance of good politics cannot be understated. Politics in this case is roughly defined as getting…

While your bridge analogy is true, I feel it's even more valuable to have an informed view for what's on the other end of that bridge. If you work the politics and use all the right materials to build an efficient bridge that's great. But a wonderful bridge to nowhere is still a bridge to nowhere. I say this because as a finance guy, I've been on lots of projects that look great on a spreadsheet and marketing, sales,…

The most difficult hurdle is that there's never that direct communication between the finance guy and the tech guy. Projects tend to get lost in translation, where you have multiple layers of departments and emails and roles playing telephone. If an organization can have that direct finance-to-tech guy/gal link, it would be the most effective way to provide the most effective value imo.

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#254

Post by uhtred »

fancythat wrote: post #230

Look no futher than this: https://archive.is/NCWmz (Wolfenstein 3d iPhone development By John Carmack, Technical Director, Id Software) To be exact: "The developers came back and said it would take two months and exceed their budget. Rather than having a big confrontation over the issue, I told them to just send the project to me and I would do it myself. Cass Everitt had been doing some personal work on the iPhone,…

Not doubting his greatness, but It's definitely a lot easier to be motivated to work harder and faster when it's your own idea/project. I assume for the team of developers it was just another project their employers were asking them to work on, with all the expected nonsense (rituals) that come with it, and so why would they want to bust a gut / work 20 hour days / care more than they are being paid to care, to get it done in 4 days.

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#255

Post by rukugu »

xdavidliu wrote: post #72
breck wrote: post #64

Pay attention to who was the lead dev on the code you are using. When you see that you are using 2+ (sometimes 5+, rarely 10+) projects from the same person, then you've found a master. Start looking closely at what they are doing, what they are reading, what they are saying on their blog, twitter, etc. I think of Linus, Lars, Anders, TJ, Rich, etc

Can you add the last names? Some these are difficult to tell who you are referring to.

Linus Torvalds, Lars Bak, Anders Heijlsberg, TJ, Rich Hickey

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#256

Post by collyw »

lizmat wrote: post #252
collyw wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devils advocate. Perl 6 is an example of where not shipping was a major contributor to the decline of the language. Shame, as it looks interesting.

If you think it looks interesting, you should have a look at Raku ( https://raku.org using the #rakulang tag on social media). Looks familiar? It should be, as it is the new name of Perl 6. It now also comes with an IDE ( https://commaide.com ) if you're so inclined :-)

Is that just a rebrand? Wasn't Raku one of the implementations?

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#257

Post by ragar90 »

arcticbull wrote: post #142
bedobi wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with this, but sadly, a prerequisite for that is a position of privilege where you're able to push back against non-valuable work. I've seen many, many very good software developers that have this quality, but get overruled, and their true value goes unrealized as a result.

Part of what it means to be a senior engineer is that you have a mastery over the soft skills/people skills commensurate with your engineering abilities. Someone who knows how a bridge should be architected but cannot navigate the politics of city council necessary to get it built isn't much of a bridge builder. The importance of good politics cannot be understated. Politics in this case is roughly defined as getting…

If you do not know how to build a bridge you should not be in charge of taking the decision of howto build it

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#258

Post by andai »

uhtred wrote: post #254
fancythat wrote: post #230

Look no futher than this: https://archive.is/NCWmz (Wolfenstein 3d iPhone development By John Carmack, Technical Director, Id Software) To be exact: "The developers came back and said it would take two months and exceed their budget. Rather than having a big confrontation over the issue, I told them to just send the project to me and I would do it myself. Cass Everitt had been doing some personal work on the iPhone,…

Not doubting his greatness, but It's definitely a lot easier to be motivated to work harder and faster when it's your own idea/project. I assume for the team of developers it was just another project their employers were asking them to work on, with all the expected nonsense (rituals) that come with it, and so why would they want to bust a gut / work 20 hour days / care more than they are being paid to care, to get i…

Two months of weekdays is about 40 days, so they would have be 80 hour days. (Although we also forgot to multiply by the number of people on the team...)

Re: Ask HN: What does mastery look like in software engineering?

#260

Post by jkingsbery »

bedobi wrote: post #122
itsmejeff wrote: post #85

I’ve been pondering this a lot lately, as an engineering leader. Masters in my organization have an extremely high ratio of value shipped to hours worked. This means two things. They are able to discern and avoid work that does not provide value (this is often their greatest skill), and the best ones can direct a whole team away from large swaths of work that is not valuable. And they are able to build systems such t…

I don't disagree with this, but sadly, a prerequisite for that is a position of privilege where you're able to push back against non-valuable work. I've seen many, many very good software developers that have this quality, but get overruled, and their true value goes unrealized as a result.

Most engineers I know in this situation move on to a new project before too long.
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