WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#701

Post by Aachen » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:20 AM UTC

traceroute66 wrote: post #671

Aachen wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

>> I was involved in a paid audit of Wire so I know more about the encryption protocol than I do about the other clients Seeing as you mentioned Threema in the same post, I think I ought to step in here. The encryption protocol for Threema is open source, using standard algorithms, not something they invented. You, like I did for $my_org, can write your own software to send messages to devices running Threema using t…

That's a good point. Threema using standard libsodium cryptoboxes makes this easier to reimplement than these Axolotl-like protocols. Still, Wire has a bot API so you don't need to reinvent the wheel to integrate in a chat. Not sure that's any harder than using libsodium.

Afaik Signal doesn't have an API or SDK, there only seem to be third party implementations for bots.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#702

Post by arendtio » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:20 AM UTC

The core issue seems to be, that companies want to profit from the information they can extract from communication and governments don't want to create laws, to make end-to-end encryption mandatory and information extraction illegal, as their own law enforcement depends on it.

So the company with the deepest pockets controls our daily communication channels and as consumers we feel powerless due to the network effect.

One way to overcome this would be to make it mandatory that communication services must allow federation. Sure, it would not be a perfect solution, but it would be a lot better than the current situation and should be acceptable by all parties involved.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#703

Post by VadimPR » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:21 AM UTC

European resident here - ended up deleting WhatsApp and asking contacts to switch to Signal/Telegram. Quite a few people were happy to make the move and some were happy for the push.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#704

Post by kar1181 » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

tdubhro1 wrote: post #692

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

I'm also in the UK and I deleted WhatsApp 2 years ago when it became clear that Facebook intended to move in the direction of fuller integration (I deleted my Facebook account after 1 month of usage 10 years ago). However, I had to reinstall WhatsApp because all of my kid's sports activities and school updates are organised through WhatsApp groups and it is impossible to participate without WhatsApp. Much as I believ…

This is precisely the dilemma in a nutshell.

You have a choice but it's a bit like voluntary solitary confinement. Especially during a lockdown.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#705

Post by josefx » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:23 AM UTC

eznzt wrote: post #676

jcalve wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

If you need to force people to use alternatives it's because they are not much better to begin with. I've used the Signal app and it's a bug fest. Telegram is not even encrypted by default and there is no option for encrypted groups.

Main reason I use whats app is because everyone else I deal with uses whats app, not because it has specific features. I could probably list a different chat app and social networking site for every time I switched a school and when I started to study.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#706

Post by kar1181 » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:24 AM UTC

ruairispain wrote: post #697

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

So many children using it. Wonder what the EU law is on data privacy and under age kids? Can under-18s legally sign this snooped data over to FB? Hope some lawyers can stop this in its tracks. Otherwise Signal or some other service will get our business

Children luckily are much more flexible and chop and change with the wind. It's the older folks once something is established it ends up becoming bedrock and super hard to change. Parents/Adults are busy if something 'works', there's a lot of resistance to changing it.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#707

Post by MattJ100 » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:24 AM UTC

ruairispain wrote: post #697

kar1181 wrote: post #677

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

So many children using it. Wonder what the EU law is on data privacy and under age kids? Can under-18s legally sign this snooped data over to FB? Hope some lawyers can stop this in its tracks. Otherwise Signal or some other service will get our business

Last I checked WhatsApp minimum age was 16 (in the EU at least) to comply with the regulations.

Obviously that doesn't stop (many, many...) just using it anyway. But Facebook will happily turn a blind eye to this unless their hand is forced.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#708

Post by 8fingerlouie » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:25 AM UTC

I have 2 contacts on Signal and 4 on Telegram, and don't even have WhatsApp installed.

I'm puzzled where Denmark went "wrong". I see other EU users say that WhatsApp is absolutely dominant in their countries, and yet everybody i know uses iMessage, which may not be surprising if you look at graphs like this https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/denmark

For "social circles", coordinating sports activites and more, people use Facebook or Facebook Messenger, which is just as bad as WhatsApp.

Schools here use Microsoft Teams for remote teaching classes, and Office365 for schoolwork, and there's not a single Google account to be found anywhere. O365 may be just as bad, but the contract is negotiated on a government level, and bound by the GDPR and other local laws, so i assume my kids personal data are relatively secure.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#709

Post by krageon » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:27 AM UTC

jcalve wrote: post #675

eznzt wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a good thing to lose a chat app that works very well and has E2E by default?

Yes, it would force people to use better alternatives such as Signal or Telegram.

Signal is run by someone who hates repeatable builds and open platforms. Telegram is to the russian government what whatsapp is to the US government.

That is to say, both options are bad. Of course it is conceptually better to spread your information over many separate information silos so that your data is harder to correlate. That should not be the bar we aspire to though.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#710

Post by tomp » Thu, Jan 07, 2021, 11:27 AM UTC

rusk wrote: post #583

submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

Who cares if it's "technically illegal" if there's no fines for it. I seriously doubt that the EU will grow teeth anytime soon (but I hope to be surprised!).