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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#821
post #642

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

Absolutely, given how polarized things are, I have little trouble believing poll workers and others with the ability to put their thumbs on the scales would do just that.

That is not watch a poll watcher does.

How exactly would any party put a thumb on the scale?

There is a watcher from each party and an election worker.

The ballots are watched the entire way from opening an envelope/voting booth, counting, moving sealed and secured boxes of ballots, counting, to the end.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#822

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

What I don't get is why anyone would believe that the Presidential election was stolen, yet not also believe that down-ballot races were also stolen.

Oh, right, because they weren't.

Yes, Dems, barely managed to flip the Senate. That that was just a +3 / +1 affair. But...

Look at all the House races. Repubs won all the red-leaning districts, nearly all the purple ones, and even some light-blue ones. They did better than expected in all states including the ones where 45 lost in the Presidential race.

If you're going to steal the election of the President via a comprehensive, super-sneaky, multi-state conspiracy, why the fuck would you also not also steal House and Senate seats? That makes no goddamn sense. You're going to alter ballots, inject fake ballots, etc., etc., etc., and not bother with the Congress and local elections too?

Moronic. Totally moronic. How fucking stupid do you have to be to believe that only the Presidential race was stolen, but everything else was fine.

Who out there is a supporter of 45, that believes the Dems don't hate Moscow Mitch nearly as much as 45 himself? Or Louie Gomert, Devin Nunes, Matt Gates, or the other lackeys? "Yeah, let's steal the election for Biden, but then leave in place all the other assholes. Great idea! That will work out perfectly!"

Morons.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#823
post #528

I think, for the safety of all involved, it may be time to enact section 4 of the 25th Amendment. Amendment 25 - Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the Pr…

That's a bad idea. His presidency is basically over. The only thing it would accomplish is to convince his diehard supporters that a coup is in fact taking place and they should respond in kind.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#825
post #617
post #528

I think, for the safety of all involved, it may be time to enact section 4 of the 25th Amendment. Amendment 25 - Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the Pr…

Would make it easier to pardon him, no?

The pardoning scenario is interesting. He may well be pardoned for federal crimes by Pence or Biden, but Presidential pardons do not extend to state crimes. It’s possible that the NY State AG might have some issues to resolve once he is out of office.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#826
post #690

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

I'm a trump supporter. I don't believe the election was stolen necessarily. However, there are major issues that have gone unresolved and unexamined by courts and cases dismissed without investigation. For example, in PA, a judge ordered the election officials to allow republican watchers to view the counting, and struck down the distance requirements set by the governor due to COVID. However, election officials refu…

Do you think that the remedy to a legal disagreement on balance of power between local/state/judicial should be to throw out thousands and thousands of legitimate votes? Or are you saying those votes are fradulent?

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#827
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

[flagged]

I'm from a different country, so I get exposure to different media sources, but from my position, this sounds very strange. The media has been absolutely complicit in enabling Trump and the far right over the past four years, so while I agree that there is no reason to trust them, it's not because they aren't fair to Trump.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#828
post #823
post #528

I think, for the safety of all involved, it may be time to enact section 4 of the 25th Amendment. Amendment 25 - Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the Pr…

That's a bad idea. His presidency is basically over. The only thing it would accomplish is to convince his diehard supporters that a coup is in fact taking place and they should respond in kind.

His diehards are already convinced of that.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#829
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

The people who are in the sacrifice zone of US capitalism have been groomed in their ignorance by the Republican party.

Now even the reality that they are not a majority is too hard for them to understand.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#830

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

I do believe the election was stolen.

This is because I have yet to see any honest attempt to refute the claims that have been made.

Refutations in the media generally boil down to "its been dismissed by dozens of judges and is therefore baseless".

Very rarely have I seen the media try to address specific claims.

The courts likewise generally have dismissed on procedural grounds and not merits. The rulings that have looked at the merits provide very limited rationale for their findings. The claims are dismissed as baseless conspiracy theories without explaining why. It does not provide confidence that the claims were honestly considered.

AG Barr likewise has not provided any transparency into his investigation. It does not appear there even was an investigation. Again, it does not inspire confidence.

Media likes to tour the cybersecurity official's statement that "this was the most secure election in history". They fail to mention that he was specifically referring to electronic threats, and not fraud or other irregularities.

When you take all of the above into context, the media doesn't feel like they need to address the claims being made. The claims have already been addressed, they say.

But they haven't. There are hundreds of testimonies illustrating that entire counting centers were behaving contrary to law. There are reports that adjudicated ballots were fraudulently assigned to Biden, and the challenges were ignored. By law, challenges have to be recorded, and they weren't. It was escalated to supervisors and their supervisors who also ignored. Again, by MI law, challenges have to be recorded. Its not something where discretion comes into play. The fact that fraud was happening and the people running that election center were ignoring challenges is evidence, to me, of widespread election laws being broken, if not fraud.

In court, their testimony has been dismissed as either hearsay (but won't let them testify in court) or just dismissed as wild conspiracy theories.

The substance of their claims have not been addressed.

Then you have things like the State Farm video in GA.

What happened there may be legitimate but it looks suspicious as he'll and the SOS's explanations do not make sense.

We are told repeatedly that they did not tell the observers that counting was done for the night.

But that is contrary to: 1. The affidavits of the observers 2. 3+ media outlets reporting that night that counting there was put on hold 3. The video which shows the woman telling people to leave 4. The SOS's own explanation for why ballots were placed under a skirted table.

For #4, the SOS said that election officials placed ballots under the table because they thought counting was done for the night.

He wants us to believe that the election officials thought counting was done, but the observers were to have just left on their own accord?

He should just admit that a mistake was made and they were told to leave. It wouldn't be a big deal, but covering it up makes it worse.

Then of course the ladies are on video running the ballots, with no observers late at night, repeatedly being tabulated 3 times. I don't think the SOS ever did explain that part, and it happened at the same time there was a massive spike in Biden votes.

It might be a coincidence and be fully legitimate. But the lack of transparency and investigation does not inspire confidence.

There are many categories of claims being made: 1. Constitutional issues of SOS/gov acting outside authority 2. Poll watchers not allowed to do their job 3. Individual observations of fraud and ignored challenges 4. Dead people voting, nonresident voting, etc 5. Statistical anomalies 6. Hacking

Number 6 is baseless as I haven't seen any evidence of hacking.

Number 5 is suspicious but doesn't prove anything by itself.

Number 4 happens in every election. Probably not enough to flip but hard to say with general lack of transparency.

Numbers 1, 2, 3 do have a legitimate basis and are fairly well documented, and account for 100s of thousands of possibly illegal votes.

Right or wrong, agree or disagree, these are serious issues that need transparency and resolution.

Sweeping them under the rug as wild conspiracies does nothing except create division and distrust.

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