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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#721
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

I'm sure in this very long thread some folks believe that those items you list are symptoms of the problem and that the root causes are much more simple. That huge chunk (I'd estimate it at well into the tens of millions of US adults) feels disenfranchised (right now they literally feel that in way in that they believe their vote doesn't count, but also figuratively) because opportunity has been "taken" from them. Taken is in quotes because though it's partially true it's also a victim mentality.

The rioters/protesters are largely white as opposed to the more-diverse BLM protesters (more on that later). These people feel like the US Government, in general, and that includes moderate republicans, has failed them in the past several decades by sending their jobs overseas, or by allowing immigrants into the country who have taken their jobs. They feel like they're being left behind, which, in truth, they are. Blue collar jobs have been exported, en masse, over the years, and that's been a bi-partisan effort resulting in lifting countless people out of poverty outside the US, but putting incredible pressure on people inside of the US, particularly the middle class, who feel like they have few or no prospects.

And of course the irony here, when compared to the BLM protests, is that if a sizable segment of these rioters/protesters weren't racist they would understand that this is how Black American have felt _for a couple of hundred years_. Important note: this is not to say that these rioters/protesters are even close to being as poorly treated as the black community. Outsourcing their jobs and giving their former wages to owners/capital in the form of profits is SO FAR from the historical treatment of black Americans that someone will read this and consider it laughable to even compare the two. But they are getting a taste of what it's like when the government stops working for them, the formerly very privileged (not relative to the 1% but certainly to black americans) white middle class.

All of the polarization stems from that. "You've taken my opportunity and everyone else seems to be getting theirs and I no longer have mine. Fuck you. I'm going to break shit until you listen up."

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#722

"Democracy is a system in which parties lose elections" - Przeworski In other words, the core concept of democracy isn't the elections or any of the other trappings, it's the fact that it's possible for one group to lose power, transition to another group and retain the possibility to transition back in a subsequent election to the original group.

> How many injuries to American democracy can my Republican Party tolerate, excuse and champion? It is elementary to have to say so, but for democracy to work one side must be prepared to accept defeat. If the only acceptable outcome is for your side to win, and a loser simply refuses to lose, then America is imperiled. — Jeff Flake

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/opinion/jeff-flake-trump-...

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#723

Boy do I wish there was a place to discuss politics in a dispassionate way. I find these events fascinating from a historical and sociological point of view. It really is history in the making. HN is pretty good at this when it comes to other topics, when when it turns political, everyone pulls out their partisan membership card.

HN has difficulty with issues that approach questions of identity or livelihood, including matters of privacy, surveillance, technical tools, policies at or concerning specific tech companies or sectors, regulation of the tech industry, and policies of or concerning tech hubs, notably Silicon Valley / Northern California, NYC, Seattle, Austen, and other regions. As well as spillover from other regional disputes, notably in recent years China, India, and Russia and environs.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#724

This is what happens when a country's leaders actively dog whistle an incitement to violence and others hitch their political future to fiction & propaganda instead of fact.

Anyone with a brain knew this was coming.

Honestly it's shocking how many on HN try to defend it. This isn't a republican or democrat issue anymore after what Pence and McConnell said today.

The man is a tyrant, and we should all be thankful it is not far, far worse than this.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#725

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I cannot believe someone would look at the current situation and think to themselves "they decided to do this because they weren't allowed to offend people on college campuses." If anything the current situation is caused by a lack of moderation and instead giving absolutely everyone the same level of authority and deference online, regardless of whether they deserve it. Every bozo gets their own twitter and substack…

> 20 years ago these people would have had much less opportunity to speak and reach followers, not more, and things were better then.

20 years ago was the disputed 2000 election, 9/11, Department of Homeland Security, Gitmo, invasion of Afghanistan, lies about WMD, invasion of Iraq, etc. So no, I wouldn't say things were better then.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#726

The riot is winding down. The Capitol Police cleared the building hours ago, and many of the crowd just hanging around have left. More cops from Virginia and DC have arrived, and are slowly pushing the remaining crowd back. Tomorrow, Congress will finish counting the electoral votes. I suspect that some, if not all, of the planned objections will not be made.

Congress is going to try and reconvene to finish counting the votes tonight.

Both Pelosi and McConnell have said that, so it should happen.

Some staffer had the presence of mind to grab the actual electoral votes signed by each state and got them out of the House chamber before the rioters came in. So that important detail is not a problem.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#727
post #690

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

I'm a trump supporter. I don't believe the election was stolen necessarily. However, there are major issues that have gone unresolved and unexamined by courts and cases dismissed without investigation. For example, in PA, a judge ordered the election officials to allow republican watchers to view the counting, and struck down the distance requirements set by the governor due to COVID. However, election officials refu…

you're still a trump supporter??

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#728
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

Personalized ads.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#729

"Democracy is a system in which parties lose elections" - Przeworski In other words, the core concept of democracy isn't the elections or any of the other trappings, it's the fact that it's possible for one group to lose power, transition to another group and retain the possibility to transition back in a subsequent election to the original group.

It's an interesting point. One thing I've noticed is that both sides increasingly believe that each election poses an existential risk to their side. Currently you see many conservatives repeating the meme that losing the Senate means a Republican will never win the White House again. The belief being that Democrats will change voting laws, open borders and amnesty to Dem-leaning immigrants, and possibly even pack th…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#730
A coup is a “forceful seizure of executive authority and office by a dissident/opposition faction within the country’s ruling or political elites that results in a substantial change in the executive leadership and the policies of the prior regime (although not necessarily in the nature of regime authority or mode of governance).”

Source: https://www.systemicpeace.org/inscr/CSPCoupsCodebook2015.pdf

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