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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#591

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

Strong disagreement.

1. In the past, the wrong speech would result in both government, and private sector censure. You're selectively omitting the civil rights struggle, the communist witch hunts, the german witch hunts that preceeded them, the history of internment and concentration camps in this country, the suffrage struggle...

We didn't somehow magically arrive at the world of 2020, without a lot of people being punished for their speech.

2. Our information diet was never as diverse as it is now. Media, prior to the age of the internet, was much more of a monoculture of ideas than it is now. New, radicalizing information arose in university halls and books and rallies, not on the television.

3. People are no more, and no less willing to admit that they were wrong today, as they were in the age of, say, segregation-forever Jim Crow south.

This coup is not the result of offensive speech being restricted, or hurt feelings. It's the direct result of a few people with media and political influence actively directing their followers to undermine our democracy.

This could have happened in any decade - but it happened today because of the particular personalities involved. You elect a president that is very vocal about his lack of respect for the law, the election process, the presidency, or democratic institutions, and this is what you get. The only reason it is happening in 2020, and not 1920, 1960, or 2020 was because the personalities on the ballot in those years had respect for those things - or at least, were adults who managed to check their worst impulses.

When he said that he won't accept the results of any election that he didn't win (back in 2016), do you still think he was confused, or kidding, or misunderstood? He was just being honest. You can't let people who profess such ideas within reaching distance of political power, because they will happily burn the world down around them to retain it.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#592
post #45

Is there ANY credible evidence of fraud, anywhere? Or are people protesting solely because they trust Trump?

Every election has fraud, and this one was no different. It's just a matter of the scale of fraud. From all evidence thus-far, this election is not all that different than past elections when it comes to voter fraud. There was more chance for fraud (due to more mail-in voting), but no one has been able to prove it was large enough to impact any election result. So yes, Trump has been riling up his base with words of…

The only serious problems we can see from the 2020 election, aside from the normal voter suppression that has long been common in many states, was the deliberate hobbling of the USPS by a Trump appointee and donor that results in an untold number of ballots not being counted that would have been counted had the USPS been operating at it's normal efficiency.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#593

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

I don't believe it was stolen.

I think we should be able to see how our vote was recorded.

The whole system is based on trust. Right now that trust is being threatened (eroded?). Since there isn't a way to individually inspect the system, we have to rely on the word of others to validate it.

The government doesn't always act in the best interest of the populace and often outright lies to it. This begs the question, should we take their word for it?

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#594
post #284
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

We got there with brazen falsehoods that don't get punished in the marketplace of ideas, or at the polls, or at the gallows. As it turns out, truth is a thing beyond price - which is to say, it is worthless.

I feel obligated to respond. Accurate information ( research, analysis and so on ) is out there though it usually you have to pay good money for it. "Free" news", as it were, is basically whatever brings attention ( which FB proved oh so very well ).

Truth is not worthless. Quite the contrary. Truth is expensive. But a fair chunk of the population subsisted on a rather limited news diet.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#595
post #419

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

That all sounds plausible, but I am skeptical that today is significantly different from other historical periods or nations that had/have similar tribalism. Look back far enough and you'll find rich stories of senators murdering each other. Sure, ancient Roman history, but relevant today. Many societies of the past have had our same divisions. Rather than making conjectures about why today is different, it might be…

The tribalism part is easy: prosperity. Just like a fed snake is calm, so an extremely prosperous society is peaceful.

A simple example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#/media/Fil...

In 1950 the US produced 80% of the world's cars. Similar story for appliances and many other products. That wasn't a normal state. So slowly it went down.

So the US is slowly reversing to its mean. Remember, robber barons, the Great Depression, the New Deal.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#596
post #197

btw Trump just tweeted the following an hour ago: > Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have > been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, > giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of > facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they > were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth! (source: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/13469004345402408... ) If thi…

The contest in the executive suite is ... strong.

Mike Pence:

Peaceful protest is the right of every American but this attack on our Capitol will not be tolerated and those involved will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

https://twitter.com/Mike_Pence/status/1346918222432374785

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#597
The riot is winding down. The Capitol Police cleared the building hours ago, and many of the crowd just hanging around have left. More cops from Virginia and DC have arrived, and are slowly pushing the remaining crowd back.

Tomorrow, Congress will finish counting the electoral votes. I suspect that some, if not all, of the planned objections will not be made.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#598
post #432

It is despicable how tepid the police response to armed rioters storming the Capitol has been compared to the response to BLM protests over the summer.

The police specifically allowed the terrorists into the building. They are on the same side. https://twitter.com/i/status/1346924307692318723

I'm confused by this video, what evidence is there that this is "allow[ing] the terrorists into the building"? All I see is law enforcement opening a gate. The Twitter account appears to be a random unverified person, so I can't rely on that either.

Not saying the police response has been perfect, but this video doesn't say much about that.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#599

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I see things almost completely opposite to you. Twenty years ago we had far less diverse access to information. You would get things from your local newspaper, or tv networks. Professionals would work and filter what we see. Today anyone can fire up a blog, twitter, youtube, and start talking about anything. People today thus have been getting exposed to all kinds of ideas, and being taken in by them: the earth is fl…

I agree with the first paragraph, but strongly disagree with the second.

Those regimes that filtered information very narrowly constrained ideas to align with the status quo. That was sometimes good, but often held back people with minority views from finding and organizing with each other. Progressive social movements and positive new possibilities have come out of this, in addition to reactionary ones.

What we do have to do is figure out how to have a shared view of the world that is less authoritarian than in the past. People now try to get the private platforms to enforce particular viewpoints through deplatforming and such. I am sympathetic to this as a practical matter, but don't think it is a viable long-term solution, as it will just lead us back to where we were, except with different people calling the shots.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#600
post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

The same way any cult-like phenomenon divorces its followers from reality.

In this case a charismatic demagogue (Donald Trump) has built a cult of personality around himself. He and his enablers employ many of the tactics used by other cult-like organizations, such religious organizations (e.g. scientology), or otherwise (i.e. multilevel marketing schemes). These organizations offer the opportunity to be apart of something "great" and "historic", to teach you how to be strong, to transform yourself from "zero to hero", and have fellowship with other like minded individuals who have the will and desire to improve their lives too. In return they demand absolute, unquestioning, and unwavering fealty.

This has little to do with political orientation (left vs right) and everything to do with Donald Trump. There is currently a "civil war" going on inside the GOP, and the most vicious attacks from the cult-of-MAGA tend to be aimed at members of the political right who voice even the slightest dissent and are thus deemed "insufficiently loyal" (i.e. counterrevolutionaries).

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