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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#581

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

" this is the price we pay for abandoning free speech."

This is completely upside down.

This is not the 'erosion of free speech' - it's actually the 'explosion' of it.

Free from any kind of filters of credibility, people can now promote whatever fictions they want to promote.

When fictions are emboldened by those in positions of legitimate authority, aka The President, the truth falls by the side.

The ratio of 'noise to truth' has blown up, and it's mostly a result of our ability to communicate in a more direct manner.

The voices of mostly uninformed individuals, free to express themselves on the soap box, are now much louder. That's not a slight: we're all busy and have different roles in life. We can't be experts in everything, ergo, most of us are not legitimate sources of truth on that much. We allocate those responsibilities to people within whom we entrust a certain degree of trust. Like the free press as one example, Science as another.

Far from 'restrictions' on speech, the internet itself, Facebook, Twitter - whatever their policies provide for 100x more communication than existed before.

We used to get information from news, politicians, bureaucrats, teachers - and some gossip from the neighbours. Now the 'gossip, youtube and TikTok information' factor is 10x greater - and that's mostly a function of free expression.

Random people on Facebook will 'like' and 'propagate' whatever 'science' they want to believe is true - which is obviously not going to result in rigorously verified information, rather the opposite.

'Good or Bad?' - that's a more complicated issue - but what we are seeing now is 'much more expression' not 'limited expression'.

I challenge anyone here to demonstrate, over the last 25 years, how there could possibly be fewer channels and sources of public information and expression.

Edit: I should add that obviously there are issues with freedom of expression, on campus, and the in the commons with certain forms of shaming for certain opinions, but that's an entirely different issue from 'public information' and 'how people are misinformed' about things like election results. The public commons is several orders of magnitude bigger than it ever was. It's not even comparable to 25 years ago, this is a completely different era we live in.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#582
post #528

I think, for the safety of all involved, it may be time to enact section 4 of the 25th Amendment. Amendment 25 - Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the Pr…

Or impeach & convict. He’s a threat to the republic, and he has to go.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#583
post #528

I think, for the safety of all involved, it may be time to enact section 4 of the 25th Amendment. Amendment 25 - Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the Pr…

Or impeach & convict. He’s a threat to the republic, and he has to go.

That's stupid. No impeachment process could ever finish on time.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#584
post #436

Trump has called for everyone to go home. We will see if they listen to him. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/13469288825958850...

Trump also specifically said that he loves the insurgents that have occupied the nation's capitol. So a mixed message at best.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#585

History in the making right here. This[1] might be an early contender for image of the year [1] https://twitter.com/igorbobic/status/1346906369232920576/pho...

It's this one for me, with the guns drawn at the entrance to the House Floor https://twitter.com/GettyImagesNews/status/13469076714259374...

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#586

"Democracy is a system in which parties lose elections" - Przeworski In other words, the core concept of democracy isn't the elections or any of the other trappings, it's the fact that it's possible for one group to lose power, transition to another group and retain the possibility to transition back in a subsequent election to the original group.

It's an interesting point. One thing I've noticed is that both sides increasingly believe that each election poses an existential risk to their side.

Currently you see many conservatives repeating the meme that losing the Senate means a Republican will never win the White House again. The belief being that Democrats will change voting laws, open borders and amnesty to Dem-leaning immigrants, and possibly even pack the Supreme Court and add DC and Puerto Rico as new states.

On the flip-side, similar sentiments were often expressed on the left of Trump heralding the end of American democracy. Republicans in power would permanently end fair elections through a combination of foreign election interference, gerry-pandering, dark corporate money, and voter suppression.

Disregarding whatever merits these views have, the fact that they're widely held by a significant chunk of the citizenry creates a dangerous equilibrium. Like you say, in a healthy democracy the losing side focuses its energy on winning the next election.

But if you think the other side's gonna use dirty tricks once in power, there is no next election to win. So you go all out it to stop the other side, and start looking for dirty tricks of your own. Now you've justified your opponents' bad opinion of you, and given them even more reason to win by any means unnecessary.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#587

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

I have seen this article [1] being thrown around among my conservative friends, and while I do not have the statistics background to understand the detailed analysis, it seems to suggest some strange behavior around the reporting of mail-in votes. Not exactly evidence, but something that may have warranted investigation at the time.

[1] https://votepatternanalysis.substack.com/p/voting-anomalies-...

edit: I'm looking for folks to give their take on this analysis since I nowhere qualified. A good summary is the final two sections of the article.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#588
CSPAN reporting "The National Association of Manufacturers just asked Mike Pence to 'seriously consider' invoking the 25th amendment", which would remove Trump from effective control as President.

Quoting a tweet by Sam Mintz

https://nitter.net/samjmintz/status/1346931121423077376#m

https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FErFCshI

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#589

This is a failure of leadership by the republicans - plain and simple. I don't care if this comment is perceived as partisan, it's a statement of fact. If the republican leadership had unequivocally come out against the narrative that the election was stolen, this wouldn't be happening. Edit: Yes, it's true that the top leader and his acolytes have engineered this outcome, but the majority of the republican leadershi…

Many Republicans on TV agree with you.

The party needs to split into the anti-democracy, pro-Trump faction, and the rest of the party. The moderate wing could easily pull some people that voted Democrat this year, and form a stable, coalition government.

This would help de-radicalize our political system.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#590

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I see things almost completely opposite to you. Twenty years ago we had far less diverse access to information. You would get things from your local newspaper, or tv networks. Professionals would work and filter what we see. Today anyone can fire up a blog, twitter, youtube, and start talking about anything. People today thus have been getting exposed to all kinds of ideas, and being taken in by them: the earth is fl…

Yes. We had free speech but we weren't prepared for unedited, viral free speech. We weren't prepared for cameras in every ordinary person's hands. We also weren't prepared for our free speech to be archived and searchable forever.

I think it's easy to blame the symptoms of social media for the issues we have. But the internet, video quality bandwidth, smartphones, and social media together have combined to dramatically change who publishes and who finds it over the last 10-15 years.

In my mind, it is going to take us time to adapt, maybe a couple generations. Things will be difficult during that time but I hope we don't make regressive changes in our values based on what is fundamentally (in my opinion) an issue adapting our approach to free speech to the rapid advancement of publishing technology.

EDIT: "most people are not equipped to understand what is reasonable" -> This is the kind of dramatic conclusion I don't think we should be drawing.

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