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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#531

Post by jmull »

Vomzor wrote: post #492
dhruvkar wrote: post #47

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

This is a good read, if you only read one link of my post let it be this one: https://spectator.us/reasons-why-the-2020-presidential-elect... It's my understanding Trump supporters are mad their concerns aren't taken seriously. Most court cases were dismissed on technicalities, without looking at the provided evidence or testimonies. This is supposed to be the evidence: https://got-freedom.org/evidence/ One example,…

Well, these are lists of claims, but they are unsubstantiated.

The question is, where is the evidence of fraud?

The people pursuing these issues need to go beyond tweeting or holding press conferences and bring evidence to court.

So far, that hasn’t happened.

At this point there’s been plenty of opportunity, so it doesn’t seem there’s evidence to substantiate this stuff.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#532

Post by Rebelgecko »

abeppu wrote: post #499
ben_w wrote: post #423

Here’s a “fun” thought: if you were running a foreign intelligence operation in the USA, surely you’d try to get one of your agents into the mob that got into the Capitol building and given free reign over all those computers, computers that were not locked properly before the legitimate users fled for their safety? I’m not just talking about Russia and China here, I mean all the intelligence agencies.

This is totally not my area. But are most offices for members of congress not able to keep the _really_ secret stuff on their own systems? Like, is the most sensitive stuff only in a well-secured SCIF in the basement or something?

SOP when I worked in a similar environment was that if there's an evacuation you don't take time to lock up. Probably not an issue for a SCIF, but could be a problem if a congressperson has a safe in their office

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#534

Post by JoshTko »

umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

1st amendment did envision the mass personalized misinformation that social networks have enabled. We need to remove all emotion based advertisement in political ads ASAP. No music, no personalities, no scary adjectives.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#535

Post by bduerst »

gameswithgo wrote: post #494
coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I see things almost completely opposite to you. Twenty years ago we had far less diverse access to information. You would get things from your local newspaper, or tv networks. Professionals would work and filter what we see. Today anyone can fire up a blog, twitter, youtube, and start talking about anything. People today thus have been getting exposed to all kinds of ideas, and being taken in by them: the earth is fl…

Agreed.

With every new communication medium comes new responsibility.

When radio was first introduced, it was rife with misinformation and false advertising. One Dr. Brinkly made a fortune selling fake goat testicle transplants (for treating ED) over the radio, only to relocate it to the Mexican border when he was shut down. He made so much money that he ran for Governor and received 30% of the vote.

We're kind of in the same place right now, but with a much broader medium. How we move forward is anyone's guess.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#536

Post by valuearb »

umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

Lincoln lived most of his life as a Whig but aligned with the new Republican Party in the 1850s during a transitional era in American politics. Northern opinion was turning against slavery, and enslaved people’s efforts to resist and escape bondage kept the issue center stage.

Rather than accede to the changing political landscape, Southern Democrats maligned the new Republican Party as an existential threat because it opposed the expansion of slavery in the Western territories. Promoters of secession, called “fire-eaters,” knew they did not command majority support even within the South, so they deployed a rhetoric of fear and anger that condemned Republicans as “fanatics” and encouraged fellow Southerners to regard Lincoln’s election as “an open declaration of war” upon the region.

This hyperbolic language left no room for compromise or middle ground; it was intended to terrify voters into opposing Lincoln. The result was that Lincoln was not listed as a candidate in many Southern precincts, and his election, thus, surprised even moderate Southerners who believed he could not command an electoral college majority. By perverting the electoral process, fire-eaters swayed moderates to adopt their conspiratorial approach to politics.

Lincoln believed in the protection of minority rights, but he also believed in majority rule. Secession was, in his words, an appeal from the “ballot to the bullet.” That is, because Southern Democrats could not persuade a majority of voters to their standard (as they had for decades), they abandoned the political process altogether. This action, Lincoln felt, made self-government impossible. If the losing side in an election could always walk away, how could a nation ever remain intact?

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#537

Post by xpe »

bumbada wrote: post #527
dhruvkar wrote: post #47

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

There is no argument here. The fact is that you should never let electronic voting machines ever in the first place. I went crazy the first time I saw them in the US long time ago and said: "this is the end of democracy" You should only count physical ballots in front of someone that represents all the parties. As an engineer I can not trust them. There are 20 different ways I can cheat using those machines, from net…

Re: "There is no argument here." can you clarify what you mean? Are you making an argument that electronic voting machines resulted in an incorrect election outcome?

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#538

Post by driverdan »

bumbada wrote: post #527
dhruvkar wrote: post #47

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

There is no argument here. The fact is that you should never let electronic voting machines ever in the first place. I went crazy the first time I saw them in the US long time ago and said: "this is the end of democracy" You should only count physical ballots in front of someone that represents all the parties. As an engineer I can not trust them. There are 20 different ways I can cheat using those machines, from net…

Nothing you just stated is evidence.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#539

Post by rattray »

awnird wrote: post #432
shadowfacts wrote: post #40

It is despicable how tepid the police response to armed rioters storming the Capitol has been compared to the response to BLM protests over the summer.

The police specifically allowed the terrorists into the building. They are on the same side. https://twitter.com/i/status/1346924307692318723

Wow, that's unbelievable. What possible explanation could there be for this?

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#540

Post by jrockway »

gameswithgo wrote: post #494
coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I see things almost completely opposite to you. Twenty years ago we had far less diverse access to information. You would get things from your local newspaper, or tv networks. Professionals would work and filter what we see. Today anyone can fire up a blog, twitter, youtube, and start talking about anything. People today thus have been getting exposed to all kinds of ideas, and being taken in by them: the earth is fl…

A diverse information diet is a great thing, but you need the context and tools for understanding what you read. That means you need to understand math, science, history, social science, etc. at a somewhat advanced level to make sense of these things.

America has been good at free speech, and we should never give that up. But for free speech to result in advancement of society, rather than goons storming the Capitol, a good education is an absolute requirement, and the government has not given all Americans the opportunity to get a good education. There will be pressure to censor speech because people aren't equipped to process it -- we should resist that and focus on education instead. This is where we should be spending our money; this is what the government exists to do. Give everyone an equal standing to understand these sources of information. We're not doing that, and the results are bad.

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