U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#411

Post by majormajor » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

You're trying to blame something you don't like on something else you don't like, but it doesn't fit.

The censorship and punishment you claim as new is plainly and obviously not a recent development, look at how socialist and capitalist ideas have been treated for the last century. Or how American evangelism has treated "dangerous" ideas for even longer than that. https://www.amazon.com/Scandal-Evangelical-Mind-Mark-Noll/dp... , for instance. Never have we been a country full of people willing to admit we're wrong. But we're increasingly a country of people being pandered to by those who want to make a buck telling us we're not actually wrong.

I think you'd more easily make the OPPOSITE argument, that our norms about what is acceptable speech have eroded too far, that we've taken free speech to an unhealthy extreme (such as how our tech platforms will happily amplify the speech of extremists - in fact, they PREFER to do this, because their algorithms have figured out that it gets more ad views).

If it's acceptable for politicians to respond to losing popularity by claiming fraud - as Trump has been doing for months - then you are on the path that leads here. If the resulting violence is not acceptable, but you ALSO don't want to restrict Trump's speech with stronger norms, what do you propose instead?

How many previous presidents would be inciting this sort of thing? How is that the result of less free speech?

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#412

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

slowmovintarget wrote: post #405

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I would heartily agree and go a bit further. Over the last three decades, news organizations have traded in their neutrality and integrity for political and "narrative" influence. It is exceedingly difficult to find information presented without some attempt to mislead. The short version: There are no more Walter Cronkites or Edward R. Murrows the nation trusts to present the news without filter or spin. That coupled…

> Over the last three decades, news organizations have traded in their neutrality and integrity for political and "narrative" influence.

No, they haven't. News organizations have always had strong political and narrative-driven tendencies, what has changed is that the media is more diverse in bias and thus the illusion of neutrality that came from the period where the major national media spoke with nearly uniform bias and agenda is lost.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#413

Post by slowmovintarget » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #394

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

These people who are storming the capital are doing it on the back of a lie, that Trump won the election. That is a lie that is perpetuated by numerous forms of alternative media. How is this the result of an erosion of free speech? If free speech was eroded, these alternative media sources wouldn't be able to incite violence with their lies. Your analysis doesn't make any sense.

The current nature of information flow made it easy for them to lie to each other. It isolated them from opposing viewpoints, so they went into an echo chamber of their own.

This is always the problem with suppressed speech. Nonsense will still be spewed, but no one reasonable gets a chance to counter it with analysis and cool it down.

Zeitgeist is broken.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#414

Post by dkdk8283 » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I’m really glad to see this as the top comment: I think your analysis is spot on.

Anecdotally I’ve been reading a lot of old news (60s-90s) and it’s amazing to read as a retrospective. It has given me context for how we arrived to present day and it’s funny to see some of the same social phenomenons repeating themselves.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#415

Post by happytoexplain » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

>hurting our iddly-widdly-fweelings

This is irrational and hostile. Regardless, what's unfolding is not a result of people more frequently experiencing normal social reactions to their public statements and actions, nor a result of the exceptional and justly criticized cases where those reactions are based on error. That line of criticism is usually just a dishonest way to excuse other behaviors, like we are witnessing here, that are dangerous to society and poisonous to discourse.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#416

Post by elmomle » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

slowmovintarget wrote: post #405

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

I would heartily agree and go a bit further. Over the last three decades, news organizations have traded in their neutrality and integrity for political and "narrative" influence. It is exceedingly difficult to find information presented without some attempt to mislead. The short version: There are no more Walter Cronkites or Edward R. Murrows the nation trusts to present the news without filter or spin. That coupled…

Don't forget the repealing of the fairness doctrine in 1987 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_fairness_doctrine)! People act like it's some big coincidence that polarized news really emerged in the US in the 90s....

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#417

Post by simpleguitar » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

It's a prelude to a "Two State Solution".

Probably not a bad idea to keep the peace.

Or more practically, greater freedom for the states, and less federal power.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#418

Post by k__ » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

323454 wrote: post #274

Coup-o-meter is right on the line between "preparing for a coup" and "attempted coup" https://isthisacoup.com/

While I saw that the police is clearly on the side of the maga protesters (making selfis with them etc.) I don't have the impression these are enough people for a coup. And the few people who are there don't seem to motivated to do much more than chanting and standing around.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#419

Post by xapata » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

coryfklein wrote: post #353

It's the practical erosion of Free Speech. Liberal (small "l" liberal) democracy and liberal science thrives on members: 1. Being willing to admit they may be wrong 2. Having access to a diverse information diet But the past two decades have shown erosion of not only legal Free Speech, but practical free speech: * Whereas previously they were just ignored (or even rebutted), today employees, students, and professors…

That all sounds plausible, but I am skeptical that today is significantly different from other historical periods or nations that had/have similar tribalism. Look back far enough and you'll find rich stories of senators murdering each other. Sure, ancient Roman history, but relevant today. Many societies of the past have had our same divisions.

Rather than making conjectures about why today is different, it might be more helpful to investigate why some time periods weren't rife with tribalism.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#420

Post by exclusiv » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

codingprograms wrote: post #84

umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

Nobody trusts the media. So people will believe what they want. There’s no source of truth

I started watching news from overseas as they seem to be more objective and professional.

Both sides have "news" outlets which are agenda based and profit motivated. And truth doesn't usually sell as well. That's a problem. You can't even trust the fact checker sources as they say "out of context" or "partially true" when it's a fact against their agenda/team. Even the fact checking sites are super biased.

If you align with a side, you attach your identity to it like Paul Graham wrote about with Keep Your Identity Small [1]. People don't like their identity criticized, or want to believe they may be wrong, so they believe what they want and create their own distorted bubble.

My buddy always said "we're told to not talk about religion or politics. Probably the 2 most powerful and influential topics that exist". Now people have started talking about them, but not in a productive fashion.

If you believe someone on the other side is bad based on their views, you can't have a dialogue. This is the greatest tragedy. Disowning family members and friends over their views because you concluded they must be bad people?

Very few people on either side are actually bad. They just have a different experience, they've aligned their identity and team, and there's a ton of forces at play (ex: media, special interests, etc) to keep that divisiveness going.

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html