Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

bti360.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 371 posts

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#201

Post by cletus »

closeparen wrote: post #192
cletus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I've said before, I think this is a corrosive aspect of the perf/promo process at many FAANGs. So I have to ask: do you or have you worked at a FAANG with these systems? I may be wrong but I suspect you haven't, particularly if you're equating them with more traditional hierarchies. The whole point of a system like this (and I have direct experience at Google and Facebook) is so you can go pretty far as purely a…

The senior IC ladder saves you from being responsible for people, their job satisfaction, their career progression. But it is still a kind of management. Facilitating meetings, reviewing documents, tracking schedules, reporting progress, convincing teams to prioritize the work, negotiating with those challenging the technical decisions, securing credit, deflecting blame, getting resources, etc. The model of an effect…

> No 46 year old wants to be doing the same thing for the same pay as a 26 year old.

Why not? Being a T5 SWE at Google is (or at least it can be) pretty chill. It's a sweet spot for low stress and relatively high compensation. Why exactly do you need to "advance" your career, particularly if you don't want to be actually or effectively managing other people?

The alternative is the "up or out" approach that drives engineers in other industries into being (usually bad) managers.

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#202

Post by cmrdporcupine »

closeparen wrote: post #192
cletus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I've said before, I think this is a corrosive aspect of the perf/promo process at many FAANGs. So I have to ask: do you or have you worked at a FAANG with these systems? I may be wrong but I suspect you haven't, particularly if you're equating them with more traditional hierarchies. The whole point of a system like this (and I have direct experience at Google and Facebook) is so you can go pretty far as purely a…

The senior IC ladder saves you from being responsible for people, their job satisfaction, their career progression. But it is still a kind of management. Facilitating meetings, reviewing documents, tracking schedules, reporting progress, convincing teams to prioritize the work, negotiating with those challenging the technical decisions, securing credit, deflecting blame, getting resources, etc. The model of an effect…

> No 46 year old wants to be doing the same thing for the same pay as a 26 year old.

I say, I say, I say boy, I resemble that remark

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#204

Post by Mountain_Skies »

rjsw wrote: post #114
karmakaze wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be closer to a pro athlete retiring from playing and going into coaching, but not so many would be good in that role.

Almost all football managers are ex players.

Yes but most ex-players are not football managers.

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#205

Post by cmrdporcupine »

cletus wrote: post #201
closeparen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The senior IC ladder saves you from being responsible for people, their job satisfaction, their career progression. But it is still a kind of management. Facilitating meetings, reviewing documents, tracking schedules, reporting progress, convincing teams to prioritize the work, negotiating with those challenging the technical decisions, securing credit, deflecting blame, getting resources, etc. The model of an effect…

> No 46 year old wants to be doing the same thing for the same pay as a 26 year old. Why not? Being a T5 SWE at Google is (or at least it can be) pretty chill. It's a sweet spot for low stress and relatively high compensation. Why exactly do you need to "advance" your career, particularly if you don't want to be actually or effectively managing other people? The alternative is the "up or out" approach that drives eng…

L5 / "Senior Software Engineer" expectations are such that you have to have "influence beyond yourself", own some area of work, set technical direction for some other engineers. You're either a team lead or an "exceptionally strong individual contributor".

It's not really that chill, and if you don't continue to do those things (lead or be exceptionally strong) that will show on your perf and therefore your compensation. Going from L4 to L5 means committing yourself to doing that on an ongoing basis. Remember at Google that "consistently meets expectations" is only a 2 out of 5 rating, just above "Needs improvement."

Coasting at L4 ("SWE III") could be fine. Large independent technical contributions, manage your own priorities, participate in design, etc. Solid individual contributor. Really equivalent to "senior developer" at most other jobs.

But now let's say you want to go transfer to a new project. The manager on the other team sees you've been at Google many years, but still at L4. Hm. Results may vary.

Not everyone makes a good team lead. Especially in a place like Google surrounded by PhDs and super achievers. But the expectation at Google up until very recently was basically that you should become that, or get out. Now in the last few years, it's been stated it's perfectly fine to plateau at L4. But I'm not convinced that that's the reality of the culture or expectations of managers.

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#206

Post by simon_mannes »

> Teams move at the speed of trust.

I'm only 7 years into my professional software engineering career and this really stuck with me. Over the last two years I had the honor to work with an awesome team on an interesting project, and yes, trust is the basis of exceptional teamwork.

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#207

Post by proverbialbunny »

reaperducer wrote: post #66
lrossi wrote: post #6

Something that I find interesting is that career advice coming from professionals having many years of experience focuses almost exclusively on the people aspects and not the technology: communication, trust, teamwork, documentation, clarity. The advice is clear, precise and honest. This is the opposite of what you get from new hires/juniors: they tend to focus on which stacks matter, what to learn, how to develop, d…

This is the opposite of what you get from new hires/juniors: they tend to focus on which stacks matter, what to learn, how to develop, deploy and maintain. Not much real advice on the behavioral side, to the point that people often take trainings for behavioral interviews and memorize “leadership principles” and other nonsense. This was exactly the experience I had not so long ago. Management brought in a new "team l…

Wow. While I do not have experience with management courses, and seminars, one book I read about management (https://www.amazon.com/First-Break-All-Rules-Differently/dp/...) talks about exactly this scenario. I am surprised to hear about it in the wild.

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#208

Post by lolive »

watwut wrote: post #182
sli wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile the guys who were doing all the new stuff, sucked at trying to juggle 12 things because it looked good on a resume. This isn't helped by the current trend of trying to hire mostly fullstack developers, also known as hiring one person to do the job of three people. It does almost nothing but incentivize packing resumes to hopefully make the cut and burn people out from switching modes.

Fullstack does not mean that you will burn out. Fullstack can mean 40 hours a week, never overtime. Also, for smaller apps, after you had at least few months of experience with all technologies, it is not difficult to switch modes. People who specialize will be better at their specialization, but you will be good enough for majority of apps.

The JavaScript fatigue is NOT a myth. [and CSS/layout is really tough, too]

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#209

Post by brummm »

rjsw wrote: post #114
karmakaze wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be closer to a pro athlete retiring from playing and going into coaching, but not so many would be good in that role.

Almost all football managers are ex players.

Just for fun, I checked for the German football league. I think more than 3/4 were professional football players before becoming coaches.

Re: What I’ve Learned in 45 Years in the Software Industry

#210

Post by peterangular »

bbbobbb wrote: post #159
peterangular wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm slightly more conservative - I've had people show up in t-shirt and jeans and have turned them away because I feel like they're breaking the social contract of what an interview is. Like - totally clean/non-offensive t-shirt and jeans. In a lot of my engineering roles I have had to be internal/external facing and do things like budget presentations, work with partners, etc. Before that, I was a general web/app de…

I think this is fair to both sides. I dress casually for interviews not only because that is what I prefer to wear but also in hopes of getting rejected by anybody who would consider that a red flag.

Yep. And that's better for both parties involved. Just don't be offended when I turn you away at the door to not waste either of our time.
Post reply on HN