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Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

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Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#121

Post by krzyk »

erikbye wrote: post #110
caskstrength wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter opinion: Hyperion books are recommended every time some of my favorite authors are mentioned (like Gene Wolfe and Peter Watts), but I found them very mediocre. Not as bad as Vernor Vinge books that are also always mentioned in similar contexts, but still quite meh.

Agreed, they do not hold a candle to Wolfe's prose. Though, many genre readers seem completely oblivious to prose quality and read purely for story. In the case of Hyperion everything is b-movie quality.

How do you measure "prose quality"?

I read books for the story (well, aren't books stories?) if it is written poorly - I don't enjoy it. And for me Gene Wolfe is written poorly the world is interesting but the story there was not entertaining at all for me and I read just the first book.

(BTW. I'm probably the only one but I just couldn't bear the constant mentions that some females face was shaped like heart).

Hyperion has interesting story and keeps you on your toes (just the first book).

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#122

Post by krzyk »

saberdancer wrote: post #6
laurex wrote: post #2

The Book of the New Sun is amazing simply for the language. I actually thought he was simply making up words until I got out a dictionary and discovered that his vocabulary simply far surpassed mine, and mine isn't terrible.

I'm not a native English speaker so I find this extremely interesting. I usually read in English so I often notice how much vocabulary certain writer uses. Most of them use the same vocabulary I am familiar with and I read the whole book without looking up a word, but there are some writers where I get a new word every few pages and it is not a word that was forced in there. It made sense to use it. I never read Gene…

Same for me, I read it in my native language and find it hard to find his prose top quality and I found his story a mediocre quality (and for me story is the La raison d'être of a book).

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#123

Post by caskstrength »

rapnie wrote: post #117
caskstrength wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter opinion: Hyperion books are recommended every time some of my favorite authors are mentioned (like Gene Wolfe and Peter Watts), but I found them very mediocre. Not as bad as Vernor Vinge books that are also always mentioned in similar contexts, but still quite meh.

Haven't read Wolfe, but this thread makes me very curious. Another out-of-context reference: How does Malazan Book of the Fallen (though in high fantasy, by Steven Erikson) compare in terms of prose, complexity, being like literature, originality, etc.?

Yeah, I've seen Malazan Book of the Fallen mentioned several times in similar discussions but I generally don't commit to reading 5+ books fantasy series unless they quality is attested by multiple people with tastes similar to mine (and after GoT and The Kingkiller Chronicle fiascos I would only start reading them _after_ series is concluded and author managed to come up with coherent ending). So, can anyone who enjoys reading "boring" stuff like The Book of the New Sun (or, as another example, The Silmarillion) express their opinion on Erikson's books?

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#124

Post by orthoxerox »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #47

I have read every single thing Wolfe wrote (even the limited-edition chapbooks), and I feel I should warn potential readers: he only had about a decade-long run as a writer of high art in the 1970s. I strongly recommend the early Wolfe, but the later Wolfe is a lesser author. In that decade, Wolfe produced three large works ( The Fifth Head of Cerberus , Peace and The Book of the New Sun ) and a number of short stori…

I found the Long Sun novels the weakest of all the Suns. Some plot points felt forced, some subplots were just quietly abandoned. The Short Sun is much better in comparison, although of course 5.HoC is a better BoSS than BoSS itself.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#125

Post by DerDangDerDang »

krzyk wrote: post #121
erikbye wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, they do not hold a candle to Wolfe's prose. Though, many genre readers seem completely oblivious to prose quality and read purely for story. In the case of Hyperion everything is b-movie quality.

How do you measure "prose quality"? I read books for the story (well, aren't books stories?) if it is written poorly - I don't enjoy it. And for me Gene Wolfe is written poorly the world is interesting but the story there was not entertaining at all for me and I read just the first book. (BTW. I'm probably the only one but I just couldn't bear the constant mentions that some females face was shaped like heart). Hyper…

There’s more than one way to tell the same story. Word choice can colour the reader’s perception subtly. Rhythm and pacing matter. Use of poetic devices and subtext make some tellings of stories much richer than others.

Some writing simply makes you go “Wow, what an amazing sentence” even if the plot is gibberish.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#126

Post by WaterForest »

saberience wrote: post #7

For all those who are saying now "Who's Gene Wolfe??" I strongly, strongly, urge you to read his tetralogy "The Book of The New Sun," it's one of the finest sci-fi/fantasy series I've ever read and I have a pretty damn critical taste when it comes to literature. (not trying to sound snobby by the way, I just don't praise books like these lightly or without good reason) So I love Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, M…

I also found the book of the new sun dull. I don't agree it's a good book at all. Hyperion written in 1989 is a much better book and arguably more sophisticated. But hey it's just an opinion.

I've heard Gene wolf is a good writer but after trying the book of the new sun I'm not tempted further. It probably comes down to personal taste.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#127

Post by erikbye »

krzyk wrote: post #121
erikbye wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, they do not hold a candle to Wolfe's prose. Though, many genre readers seem completely oblivious to prose quality and read purely for story. In the case of Hyperion everything is b-movie quality.

How do you measure "prose quality"? I read books for the story (well, aren't books stories?) if it is written poorly - I don't enjoy it. And for me Gene Wolfe is written poorly the world is interesting but the story there was not entertaining at all for me and I read just the first book. (BTW. I'm probably the only one but I just couldn't bear the constant mentions that some females face was shaped like heart). Hyper…

It is not measurable, unless you count adverbs and adjectives or things of that nature, but it can be critiqued.

George Orwell on prose: https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_poli....

Also, see Elements of Style.

A good story can be "written poorly," that's where prose quality comes into play. When you say written poorly it seems you are referring to narrative and structure--as you deemed it not entertaining--not prose.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#128

Post by WaterForest »

erikbye wrote: post #108
saberience wrote: post #7

For all those who are saying now "Who's Gene Wolfe??" I strongly, strongly, urge you to read his tetralogy "The Book of The New Sun," it's one of the finest sci-fi/fantasy series I've ever read and I have a pretty damn critical taste when it comes to literature. (not trying to sound snobby by the way, I just don't praise books like these lightly or without good reason) So I love Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, M…

I do not think your taste is critical if you enjoy Game of Thrones prose. Gene Wolfe's is far above. GoT is average fantasy prose and nowhere near literary fiction quality.

Story and character is more important for me than prose. I need to care about what is happening to want to read on and I found the book of the new sun wanting in that regard. I found it a struggle to read - similar to the storm light series (which I found even worse with paper thin characters and terrible plotting). Just my personal opinion.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#129

Post by WaterForest »

WaterForest wrote: post #126
saberience wrote: post #7

For all those who are saying now "Who's Gene Wolfe??" I strongly, strongly, urge you to read his tetralogy "The Book of The New Sun," it's one of the finest sci-fi/fantasy series I've ever read and I have a pretty damn critical taste when it comes to literature. (not trying to sound snobby by the way, I just don't praise books like these lightly or without good reason) So I love Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, M…

I also found the book of the new sun dull. I don't agree it's a good book at all. Hyperion written in 1989 is a much better book and arguably more sophisticated. But hey it's just an opinion. I've heard Gene wolf is a good writer but after trying the book of the new sun I'm not tempted further. It probably comes down to personal taste.

A fantasy book with good prose and better story than 'the book of the new sun' is 'the name of the wind'.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#130

Post by ghaff »

krzyk wrote: post #119
saberience wrote: post #7

For all those who are saying now "Who's Gene Wolfe??" I strongly, strongly, urge you to read his tetralogy "The Book of The New Sun," it's one of the finest sci-fi/fantasy series I've ever read and I have a pretty damn critical taste when it comes to literature. (not trying to sound snobby by the way, I just don't praise books like these lightly or without good reason) So I love Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, M…

I read just the first book in the "Book of the New Sun" and found it quite boring. And my books are quite similar to yours with few exceptions: - Martian Chronicles - interesting concept but eventually it goes into some ecological + anarchist sci-fi which I'm not a fun of - Earthsea - good, but it is mostly for teens, young adults (I read it as a teen and loved it, reread it years later and it was so so) - Dune - the…

>Hemingway - I read just The Old Man and the Sea (or actually was forced in school to read it) - and this was a short novel about basically nothing, boring as it can be

I'm not sure why schools tend to fixate on that particular work. Hemingway may not be to your taste anyway but I much prefer A Farewell to Arms, A Moveable Feast, many of his short stories, etc.

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