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US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

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Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#161

Post by undecisive »

yladiz wrote: post #125
ant6n wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other countries are slipping, though. For example, Germany does not actually have a single-payer system, but instead a "system" of public and private health insurance companies. As an employee you`re usually in the public system, which can be more expensive for higher-earners because the fees are based on your income (although the health taxes are regressive, capped above like 65K income per year). Self-employed peop…

Please. Let’s not turn this into whataboutery. This isn’t about other countries doing things poorly, and more specifically Germany was not named by the parent commenter. This is about the US doing things significantly worse than basically any other developed country. I live in Germany, and know that the German healthcare system is not perfect, but I also know, as an American, that it is significantly better by essent…

I think all systems have their downsides. In the UK for example, we've started doing citizenship checks for anyone who looks remotely like a foreigner, which to my mind is perverse and unnecessary, and part of a governmental preoccupation with trying to become as racist as possible via the back-door. (essentially, if we can blame the foreigners, we can absolve the government)

However, I think we can still say "America's system is totally screwy" and also say "and btw, as a warning, X country seems to be heading down that route too" - I don't think, phrased the way ant6n's post was, it takes away from criticism of America.

Essentially, in a perfect world, nobody would be made bankrupt because they got ill, and it seems right that governments should do everything they can to prevent that. If there is a class of people who get forced into that position because of something they cannot change, then that system is broken - whether or not that broken system adversely affects you personally. For example, the American system is not broken for rich people, and especially those in perfect health. For those people, it works just right.

And even if you are the only person in a country that is given the choice between feeding their family or investigating an abnormal lump, it doesn't matter how many people benefit from the upsides of that system, it doesn't matter if all your neighbours can visit their GP for a weekly checkup without penalty - without a doubt that system is broken and unjust and needs fixing.

But yes, I think most developed-country-based non-Americans would rate America's system as somewhere between "more broken than mine" and "perverse and cruel". The fact that we all use America's system as the yardstick for what a bad system looks like says it all.

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#162

Post by trynewideas »

Some context: the clinic (technically named the Arkansas Cancer Institute, not the Arkansas Cancer Clinic as in the story) faced lawsuits in 2018-19 after more than 50 patients tested positive for an undisclosed bacterial infection linked to saline flushes on infusion ports.[1][2] The results of the lawsuit weren't reported, but the clinic closed in February 2020, about a year after the firm behind the suit pursued class-action status.

[1] https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/feb/03/at-first-pin...

[2] https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2019/jan/13/pb-clinic-la...

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#163

Post by lotsofpulp »

faceplanted wrote: post #158
lotsofpulp wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't get this nonsense where the insurer tries to deny us and hope that we don't dispute. It’s also not the case in 99% of US claims. The ones you hear about are typically due to healthcare providers not providing sufficient justification for the healthcare or medications they are prescribing, which can easily cost tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. The “insurers” are many times not eve…

> It’s also not the case in 99% of US claims. So is it just sampling bias that we hear constant stories outside the US of everything from broken legs to cancer patients being denied coverage or being covered but having life destroying out of pocket costs? Because it really is constant.

There’s 330M people in the US and 365 days in a year, so you can hear about one mistake every day and it’s still an extremely minute error rate.

It would be nice if someone brought data to the discussion.

And specifically about health insurers erroneously denying coverage. I have first hand knowledge from a doctor at an insurance company that audits other doctors’ work at the same insurance company to ensure they are not erroneously denying claims, as there are heavy penalties from state governments and CMS.

That is a separate conversation from out of pocket costs destroying someone’s life that has nothing to do with health insurers and everything to do with how much US voters are willing to have their taxes go to those with less.

There is some information in this link:

https://www.kff.org/private-insurance/issue-brief/claims-den...

> The ACA guarantees external appeal rights to enrollees in all non-grandfathered private health plans. When issuers uphold denials at the internal appeal level, consumers have the option of requesting an independent review by an outside entity, whose decision is binding. Consumers also can bypass internal appeal and go directly to external review in emergencies and certain other circumstances. Consumers seldom avail themselves of external review.

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#164

Post by gambiting »

metters wrote: post #118
cryptonym wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treatment and part of my income was insured by public actors (not US). No issue, everything is automatic, didn't had to pay a single thing and it would even be possible to get unlimited free taxi rides from home to hospital, free public transport, wig, sport... even a tax cut. I'm really thankful for this. Other part of my income was insured by a private company. They lost my files, claimed I didn't fill the forms an…

What's the name of that insurer?

Not OP, but when my dad had cancer in Poland, the national health fund covered his entire treatment over 8 years. Few operations, monthly dose of Glivec(google the cost of Glivec treatment in the US to see how insane that is), hospital stays, and like OP said - he would get reimbursed for travelling to the hospital and back. And this treatment was never tied to his employment, he never had to prove to anyone that he definitely has cancer still, we've never seen a single bill for any of it, I simply have no idea how much this treatment has cost over the years. Which is the point of it all I think - if you need treatment, you simply get it, a regular person never has to worry about billing, dealing with insurers or anything like that. The only interactions you need to have are the doctors telling you when to appear for the operation, and the pharmacy calling you to let you know your drugs are ready to pick up. That's about it. I know there are outliers in that system, but for my dad's entire 8-year long treatment I'd consider the way this all works as 10/10.

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#165

Post by CerebralCerb »

nobrains wrote: post #52

Sorry, if this is another angle, but I would have been more happy if instead of mentioning US doctor (or in addition to mentioning it), they would have mentioned his traits viz. "muslim" and "pakistani-origin". (I am happy none the less) Muslims are currently vilified, and Pakistani isn't in the best books right now. So, a little nod to someone who did good being muslim and pakistani-origin goes a long way to neutral…

My favorite part of being a white heterosexual male is that my achievements are credited to me, and not conflated with my ethnicity, sexuality or gender.

It's deeply humanizing to be seen as an individual and not just some minority.

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#166

Post by lotsofpulp »

gambiting wrote: post #164
metters wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the name of that insurer?

Not OP, but when my dad had cancer in Poland, the national health fund covered his entire treatment over 8 years. Few operations, monthly dose of Glivec(google the cost of Glivec treatment in the US to see how insane that is), hospital stays, and like OP said - he would get reimbursed for travelling to the hospital and back. And this treatment was never tied to his employment, he never had to prove to anyone that he…

The Gleevec was probably an order of magnitude cheaper or more for the Polish government than in the US:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/312011/prices-of-gleevec...

And doctors in Poland are probably not earning a few hundred thousand USD per year, and similar for nurses wages and all the other people in the healthcare chain. Quick googling shows wages might be an order of magnitude cheaper also.

I assume healthcare providers in Poland are also not subject to the legal liability they would be in the US.

Yes, the US has some extra administrative costs due to the billing nonsense of non taxpayer funded healthcare and overhead of health insurance companies, but bottom line is healthcare costs more in the US because everyone earns more top to bottom in the US, and supply of healthcare and medicine is constrained.

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#167

Post by gnopgnip »

Areading314 wrote: post #11

One of the most unfair characteristics of US healthcare is that if the health insurance company does not cover a claim, then the patient is responsible for the payment. It is unrealistic in practice for a patient to know or understand the process by which claims are made (since they are made by an error prone and disinterested provider administrator, and are made in a non-transparent and highly complex way), and also…

If you are at an in network provider, the provider is required to accept the insurance negotiated rate and not pursue the patient. If your insurance denies the bill, the provider can't pursue the patient.

In many states surprise billing and balance billing laws prevent out of network providers from billing you for the balance, in excess of what medicare or your insurance pays.

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#168

Post by rozab »

trynewideas wrote: post #162

Some context: the clinic (technically named the Arkansas Cancer Institute, not the Arkansas Cancer Clinic as in the story) faced lawsuits in 2018-19 after more than 50 patients tested positive for an undisclosed bacterial infection linked to saline flushes on infusion ports.[1][2] The results of the lawsuit weren't reported, but the clinic closed in February 2020, about a year after the firm behind the suit pursued c…

Some evidence that such infections are preventable and thus are caused by malpractice:

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/9/8905959/medical-harm-infection-...

(yes, vox do hit the mark occasionally)

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#169

Post by roenxi »

jmiserez wrote: post #159
roenxi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. What do you think is a better proxy?

For one, minimizing disability-adjusted life years lost. Of course it's not perfect and making this the the only criterium would be morally wrong, but it's definitely more fair than going by bank accounts. Quote ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability-adjusted_life_year ): > The methodology is not an economic measure. It measures how much healthy life is lost. It does not assign a monetary value to any person or c…

I see a decent argument that, but that is basically inverting someone's access to healthcare with the amount of time they've put into their community. It is much easier for old people to look back on a lifetime of doing good than young people, but prioritising healthcare to young people minimises DALY lost.

It also penalises people who are sick with serious diseases, as giving them more healthcare would have less impact than helping someone healthy.

I think it is easy to justify mathematically but in practice would be quite cruel. Plus it creates incentives for shenanigans as people desperately bribe doctors to lie about their potential futures.

Re: US doctor forgives $650k in medical bills for cancer patients

#170

Post by ruined »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #137
k_sze wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even understand how the "health care" system and the insurance industry can be both so messed up in the US. It may be just anecdata, but In Hong Kong, my family has an insurance agent whom we work very close with. We're just middle class. E.g. only my dad has a car; my sister is 42 and I'm 38, and we still don't have our own car. Whenever something related to making use of the insurance plan comes up, the ins…

> We don't get this nonsense where the insurer tries to deny us and hope that we don't dispute. It’s also not the case in 99% of US claims. The ones you hear about are typically due to healthcare providers not providing sufficient justification for the healthcare or medications they are prescribing, which can easily cost tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. The “insurers” are many times not eve…

> It’s also not the case in 99% of US claims. [...] Surely, there are mistakes made, but there is no standard operating procedure at insurance companies to deny healthcare.

This is so out of sync with the experience of everyone i know that i wonder if you've interacted with the healthcare system at all beyond checkups and occasional antibiotics.

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