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Is Everything Securities Fraud?

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91–100 of 115 posts

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. It's not The Market™ or The System™. It turns out starving kids in Africa are of no value to anyone except to their parents, who have no means to provide commensurate to the child's value to them. The blunt truth is that arbitrary lives are probably nearly valueless and certainly worth less than $1000. I have tested this hypothesis by describing GiveWell's mathematics to people at varying stages bef…

> It turns out starving kids in Africa are of no value to anyone Listen to yourself. This isn't normal, but on markets, it is. > The "moral notion of value" is a nonsensical concept No, it's the fundamental concept. Economic value should aspire to approximate it if we want the market to be a force for collective good. To the extent that economic value fails to approximate moral value, the economy fails to serve our c…

>>It turns out starving kids in Africa are of no value to anyone >Listen to yourself. This isn't normal, but on markets, it is.

If you treat starving kids as important then you will have more starving kids. If you treat starving kids as unimportant or undesirable you will try your best to prevent them from being created in the first place.

The vast majority of necessary policies that you need to change in the relevant countries have absolutely nothing to do with individual charity. A lot of what is needed is simple infrastructure projects. People waste their time acquiring water on foot instead of getting a water truck delivery. You can drive a water truck for 600 miles and it's still more economical than walking. The problem is often that there are no roads suitable for 20 ton trucks. You'll get stuck on the dirt roads so no delivery happens at all.

People think of complicated solutions like drone delivery of medicine because the government fails to maintain or set up basic infrastructure. It all boils down to government corruption and people's desire to work around it. It's not going to work out.

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. It's not The Market™ or The System™. It turns out starving kids in Africa are of no value to anyone except to their parents, who have no means to provide commensurate to the child's value to them. The blunt truth is that arbitrary lives are probably nearly valueless and certainly worth less than $1000. I have tested this hypothesis by describing GiveWell's mathematics to people at varying stages bef…

I live nude in a barrel by a river, all I do is trade cryptocurrency on my phone collecting over 8 figures annually, and everything I don't spend on potatoes I donate to GiveWell. How could I save more lives?

Fight against government corruption. It'll save billions.

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#93
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.

This HN cliché notwithstanding, economists actually do understand a lot more about the study of economics.

It's just the general strawman. People only see economists when they fail so they think all economists fail even though it is only a subset.

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#94
post #69

This is probably showing up because it showed up in Matt Levine’s newsletter which returned today. In the newsletter, Matt disagrees with one of the conclusions drawn in the paper that shareholders have a perverse incentive to invest in companies that do bad things because they are compensated their loses when the stock goes down. He disagrees because their are compensated with money that the company has which alread…

The money doesn't actually belong to the shareholders, since a shareholder only owns the company stock not the company (stocks typically do not grant any ownership rights of any kind besides votes on management/corporate actions--many don't even do that). Companies can decide to re-allocate profits through dividends or buy-backs, but can also decide to re-allocate to other things that may not ultimately benefit the s…

Shareholders can just liquidate the company and redistribute the assets of the company based on the number of shares a person possesses.

Liquidation is generally only done when absolutely necessary. Why close a functioning company if you can just sell it to someone else?

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It turns out starving kids in Africa are of no value to anyone Listen to yourself. This isn't normal, but on markets, it is. > The "moral notion of value" is a nonsensical concept No, it's the fundamental concept. Economic value should aspire to approximate it if we want the market to be a force for collective good. To the extent that economic value fails to approximate moral value, the economy fails to serve our c…

>>It turns out starving kids in Africa are of no value to anyone >Listen to yourself. This isn't normal, but on markets, it is. If you treat starving kids as important then you will have more starving kids. If you treat starving kids as unimportant or undesirable you will try your best to prevent them from being created in the first place. The vast majority of necessary policies that you need to change in the relevan…

> If you treat starving kids as important then you will have more starving kids

If you care about cancer patients you will have more cancer patients? This is nonsense because you framed it wrong. Caring about [something] isn't necessarily about perpetuating or creating more [something], it's about solving (on of) the problem(s) behind it. And this can have solid economic value. On top of it you can have a layer of humanity where you do something purely for the the well being of another.

To the point, "caring about starving kids" means "caring about solving starvation". This has plenty of implications, not the least of which are that you developed tech that can be applied elsewhere, or that you just created a new market where the participants have a chance of actually paying because they have a chance at a disposable income. You "created" new valuable members of society capable of producing and consuming your products or services.

The reason starving kids don't pull that much attention is that "solving" starvation has a shaky business case, far from guaranteed success, and very unclear timeline. Things most businesses shy away from.

Why do you think Facebook is investing in internet in India or Africa? It's not because they care about people with no internet so by your reasoning they'll create more people with no internet. It's because they are untapped markets that need to be brought up just to the point where they become profitable. You have to spend money to make money. So far the case for solving world hunger has that threshold too high for today's "make money now" stock price driven business models.

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value depends on context. The punishment for hurting someone is much higher than the amount it takes to help someone. And spending a thousand dollars to help an anonymous person, who is in a sea of people not getting help, and will fall back into that sea soon enough, feels like tossing it into a black hole when the donation is all by itself. But if there's enough donations together, they feel more meaningful. Yo…

> People want to make a difference that's visible when looking at the entire problem. This sounds a lot like saying its not worth it to help one person.

More like "there is so much less value in spending money for painkillers for you today when it could be spent for a cure for everybody forever". If a dentist never pulled out a tooth and just charged for morphine now and again you'd be pissed instead of being relieved that they made you feel well just for one day. Not only do you still suffer (but with timeouts), you also payed more long term.

If everyone just takes turns pushing a boulder up a mountain eventually you'll put in more effort than if everyone pushes at once, and have almost none of the results. Sometimes being even 99% there is not enough.

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#97
This is some really strange stuff. Since shareholders own the company, wouldn't this mean that the shareholders who didn't sue are effectively paying the shareholders who did?

That makes sense if the shareholders who sued were somehow specifically affected, but if the effect is a drop in stock price, all shareholders were affected equally, so it doesn't make sense for some shareholders to compensate others.

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#99
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't how the various things called "value of a life" are calculated. The Wikipedia article linked above describes some ways to do it, and if you look at them you will see that with one exception they are not estimating, nor trying to estimate, expected future earning power or anything like it. (Though that might affect the answer.) The first approach they describe: take N people and ask each of them how much th…

All of those are still just asking "how much is your life worth in dollar terms?" Not "how happy are you". The assumption is the more money you're willing to spend to stay alive the happier you must be. > Also, though this is a less important point: Life insurance is not only for paying off some fraction of your theoretical lifetime income. E.g., you can buy life insurance policies even after you have retired, even i…

I agree that "what is the monetary value of your life?" is not the same question as "how happy are you?", and so far as I can tell no one was saying otherwise.

Presumably the two are related; if you are miserable and expect to remain so, you will probably be less willing to pay for more life. Clearly the two are not the same; if you have no money, your ability to pay will be greatly constrained.

You can deal with that latter problem to some extent by asking hypothetical questions: suppose your net wealth were exactly $1M, then how much would you pay for a 0.1% reduction in your chance of dying this year? But of course people don't necessarily have that much insight into what they would do in hypothetical situations. Or by asking people what they would pay for other people's lives, which is kinda what e.g. national healthcare institutions like the NHS in the UK or Medicare in the US have to do to decide what treatments they are willing to pay for. But of course that also isn't measuring happiness, nor even other people's estimates of it.

Or, of course, you could use the same techniques as you use for calculating a "statistical value of a life" to put a value on things other than merely being alive or not. Ask people about things that trade off money against some probability of disfigurement, depression, being abandoned by their spouse, etc., etc. Or look at the tradeoffs they actually make.

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If you have capital but no income then you can buy life insurance, at least until the capital runs out. Of course, if you have capital then you can also buy income.

I agree that retirement income is still income, which is why I bothered to add "even if you have no income". (Of course being retired and having no income of any sort is a highly unusual situation, because there are state pensions and the like.)

But, I repeat, it is simply not true that the only possible reason for buying life insurance is to make up for the loss of your income after you die. Here is a concrete situation to imagine:

You have some investment that provides income. It will continue to do so after you die. It's enough for you to live on, reasonably comfortably but not at all extravagantly. Your needs are few, so you don't take a job, you just live off your investment income.

The investment will not change as a result of your death. No one will be financially worse off when you die. But you have an aged parent who needs a lot of help: something like one person, full time. You do it for free -- you have plenty of time and you love them and care about them. But there is no one else who would be willing and able to do it for free.

So when you die, your parent will need a lot of help, and it will need to be paid for. They can inherit that investment and the income it brings, but that may not be enough to pay for the help they need. You are still fairly young and healthy, so you can get life insurance cheaply. That way, if you get hit by a bus or have an unexpected heart attack or something, your parent will be able to afford the care they need.

(This is a situation in which life insurance is bought for a reason other than replacing income. It is not a situation in which life insurance is bought by someone who has no income to be replaced. Those are separate possibilities, and I suspect there is no plausible scenario in which they both happen at once.)

Re: Is Everything Securities Fraud?

#100
post #41

I was just thinking, maybe we should privatize the police force. And then when the police kill or maim another unarmed black man, we can sue them for securities fraud, for not providing the promised level safety of law enforcement. It sounds like a lot more justice than we're getting now.

Who would own the private police force? Only shareholders have standing to sue for securities fraud. The scenario you are describing is more like users of a product suing the provider. Users of a product can’t sue for securities fraud but can sue for breach of warranty of tortious conduct like negligence.

We don’t need to privatize the police force to be able to sue them for the harm they cause. Police already get sued a lot for their misconduct in civil court [1]. Civil cases are easier to win because the burden of proof is lower. The citizens (analogous to the shareholders) have just been unable (or unwilling) to hold them accountable for the harm they’ve been causing.

[1] https://www.chicagoreporter.com/chicago-spent-more-than-113-...

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