Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project • Hacker News Board

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#301

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:35 AM UTC

wmf wrote: post #227

ogre_codes wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. If Linux only ran on hardware which the creator was willing to provide support, Linux would not exist. Linux was created in spite of Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc etc. Support from the makers only came later. Linux was originally an OS created by people who wanted to do things the OEMs and commercial vendors didn'…

Maybe you're over-interpreting "support". The x86 PC platform at least provided documentation for OS developers while Apple Silicon doesn't.

Not sure what you are getting at here. Getting Linux to run on the M1 already works... it's ARM Linux. It already runs on a VM on the M1 unmodified. I suspect we'll see Linux booting on M1 hardware within 6 months, likely less.

What is going to be a much bigger struggle is getting the drivers for all the various other bits of the architecture working properly. The GPU is the biggie, but networking drivers, power management, audio drivers... the DSP, etc etc.

All of the the things which are going to be difficult to get right on the M1 were an uphill battle on x86 as well. And no, Nvidia never provided documentation for their GPUs, it was a long time before we had good graphics support on Linux. Even audio drivers were a mess. Wifi modems were problematic well into the 2010s.

Most hardware makers still don't document hardware features, the good ones provide binary drivers, and plenty of others rely on known interfaces so they work with older drivers.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#302

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #68

ogre_codes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. At the very least, they should be a corporate sponsor for Marcan's Patreon. Ideally they should just hire him and provide him with internal resources to work on it. Even if Apple doesn't benefit from Linux running on bare metal, many of these efforts will benefit Linux running inside a VM as well.

I don't think hardly anything here will help Linux running in a VM FWIW. The unknowns are mainly the Apple specific IP blocks which aren't exposed to VMs.

Depends if you care about having graphics or audio in your Linux VM. Currently I think Linux VMs are just console only. Also, there is a lot of accelerated hardware which the CPU has which would be nice to get access to inside a VM.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#303

Post by newusertoday » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

actuator wrote: post #40

It seems so amazing to me that Microsoft saw the ARM opportunity with Windows RT, released 8 years back but somehow managed to not succeed with a stellar ARM laptop story. Maybe Qualcomm is more to blame here for never progressing as well as Apple has done on chips but maybe the software experience was just not there. We would probably already have good ARM laptops running linux distros if Windows on ARM had taken of…

Qualcomm will supply whatever customers will demand, Die area of apple chips is significantly bigger than qc chips, if qc were to make similar chips will microsoft or for that matter any other vendor pay for it? it all comes down to that.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#304

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

ostenning wrote: post #220

Badfood wrote: post #5

I'll buy our whole company these macs in a heartbeat if this becomes good enough

Considering that one of Apples major revenue streams is selling hardware, you'd think Apple would want to actively support Linux.

Apple deprecates support for older Macs in new macOS releases after 6 to 7 years. It's part of the incentive to upgrade.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#305

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

Badfood wrote: post #5

I'll buy our whole company these macs in a heartbeat if this becomes good enough

That's quite a hypothetical investment to make on the back of a project that might not exist in half a decade, or will have shifted resources from supporting M1 Macs to supporting the new Apple hardware that gets released every year.

If you want actual mainline Linux support, buy hardware you can boot any generic Linux ISO on, which precludes all most every ARM SoC, including M1 Macs. Recent ARM servers implement SBSA[1], which means they can run ARM Linux ISOs just as well as x86 machines can. With ARM SoCs like the M1, you're married to whoever is generous enough to donate time and resources into rolling out bespoke Linux images for your specific SoC.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Base_System_Architectur...

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#306

Post by ed25519FUUU » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 6:01 AM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #294

gorkish wrote: post #204

Apple needs to give a little here. I think it's patently ridiculous that we have to enlist the assistance of console hackers in order to have a chance at porting the most used operating system in the entire world to run on hardware that in all likelihood already happily runs it inside of Apple's labs. > In particular, we will be reverse engineering the Apple GPU architecture and developing an open source driver for i…

> This is all a noble goal, but I can't see this as being anything other than a complete and total non-starter with zero cooperation from Apple. I think marcan has proven he has the chops for pieces like that. The ps4 linux port had him reverse engineering the ISA for the custom risc cores that are some of the deepest firmware of a pretty modern AMD GPU. Like even the open source drivers just treat this stuff as blob…

Also, it sounds like he just loves doing this. Everyone is treating him like a martyr but he’s doing what he’s good at and we’re all benefiting.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#307

Post by themacguffinman » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

WantonQuantum wrote: post #258

readams wrote: post #236

Solution: don't buy locked down Apple hardware. Yes, the chips look nice but it's just really unfortunate that they're from Apple and so come with all the Apple baggage. Just wait a couple years for competing chips that won't have the baggage.

For what problem is this the solution?

The problem is a weakened or lack of reliable Linux support. This is an unofficial hack for an Apple platform notorious for having little open documentation or good interoperability with anything non-Apple. It's always going to be an uphill battle to reliably support Linux because Apple themselves don't seem to care (at the moment at least). Investing in Linux integration for a more supportive hardware vendor instead should yield better Linux outcomes without Apple's baggage.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#308

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #190

ogre_codes wrote: post #14

Just a reminder, the Patreon is not fully funded. If people really want to see this happen, dropping a couple dollars a month to help support the project is the best way. https://www.patreon.com/marcan

No, Apple actually supporting it (in the same way that Intel, AMD, ARM/Linaro et. al. staff resources to support their hardware on Linux) is the best way. But paying productive engineers via crowdfunding isn't an awful workaround.

We can't change what Apple does. Gnashing your teeth about that isn't going to help.

What we can do is support this Patreon.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#309

Post by ogre_codes » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

INTPenis wrote: post #175

ogre_codes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. At the very least, they should be a corporate sponsor for Marcan's Patreon. Ideally they should just hire him and provide him with internal resources to work on it. Even if Apple doesn't benefit from Linux running on bare metal, many of these efforts will benefit Linux running inside a VM as well.

It's also bonus points towards sustainability to ensure their devices have a life after obsolescence. Honestly Apple could use some of those points considering how many little plastic parts they force people to buy.

> It's also bonus points towards sustainability to ensure their devices have a life after obsolescence.

This is my primary interest in this project. Given Apple's support life for Macs, I don't think I will ever use it, but I'd like to have the option the same way I was able to extend the life of my G4 iMac.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#310

Post by deaddodo » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 6:30 AM UTC

boardwaalk wrote: post #273

deaddodo wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with nouveau is more that it's trying to replicate the Nvidia blob driver (and then some), in that it supports multiple disparate architectures and at different levels (three generations might be a similar uarch, for instance). Replicating a single GPU driver would be significantly easier, albeit still a Herculean task. Especially if your main goal out of the gate is simply framebuffer support and maybe s…

Sounds like a fun project, honestly. I wonder how much 2D-only “legacy” functionality even exists on the thing. I expect not much. Going for something like Vulkan right off with a mind for it probably being built to accelerate Metal might be a viable angle. Total spitballing though. Once they come out with the 16” MBP I may have fun poking at it.

You can read about the architecture in their docs:

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/metal/gpu_features...

It's a fairly generic TBDR architecture based on it's slowly-replaced PowerVR heritage and it still has fixed function hardware in the core of the architecture.