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Wasmer 1.0

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Re: Wasmer 1.0

#81

Post by coldtea »

anderspitman wrote: post #56
danielheath wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a big fan of the capability-based photo access in ios; when an app tries to access my photos it opens a system dialog which allows me to select the set of images the app can see.

Have you ever tried to build a cross-platform photo app that works on iOS and regular computers?

That's on them ("regular computers"). Their OSes could offer the same capabilities to map to.

That said, it's not:

(a) as if there aren't cross platform photo apps that run on iOS and "regular computers". Photoshop and Lightroom come to mind immediately, Affinity Photo also. And those aren't just iOS and Mac, they're also on Windows. So there's that.

(b) as if what would slow you down / prevent you from doing such a cross platform photo app would be the iOS capability / image access request feature.

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#82

Post by coldtea »

anderspitman wrote: post #26
brundolf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others are pointing out here: the cross-platform value-add of browser based apps is the GUI layer, not the code runtime. We've had the JVM for decades, and it even has a GUI layer, it's just a much less powerful GUI layer than today's web. People have been trying to create a simple, native, platform-agnostic GUI layer for as long as GUIs have existed. Nothing but the web has ever come close to succeeding. It may b…

Sorry, but I think there's some stockholm going on here. People use the web for apps because people use the web for apps. It was in the right place at the right time and an extinction event chose JavaScript. That doesn't mean we can't make something better (doesn't mean we can, either).

No, people use the web for apps because:

(a) AWT was shitty and Swing an overengineered mess.

(b) GTK+ was never decent cross platform.

(c) QT was more decent, but had its own issues, and still in an uncanny valley (neither native enough, not its own thing like the web UI is).

(d) Cocoa and whatever Windows has this week are not cross platform.

(e) Most other alternatives are buggy, understuffed, and just don't look good

(f) It's easy to put something on the screen with not even a compiler or download needed.

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#83

Post by coldtea »

pjmlp wrote: post #34
brundolf wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're trying to build out an arbitrary UI, there is no GUI layer today that's more flexible than the web (in terms of screen sizes, customizability, layout styles, look and feel). Maybe you could argue that this flexibility arose because of the popularity it gained by being in the right place at the right time, but at this point the network-effect is not the only reason we use it. It has genuinely become a more p…

Houdini is still barely capable comparable with native drawing. Layout managers were already a thing in Motif. Where is the great web tooling capable to beat Delphi/VB workflows?

>Houdini is still barely capable comparable with native drawing.

Which is neither here, nor there. The web stack (sans Houdini) is powerful enough for 99% of things an app will need to draw.

>Layout managers were already a thing in Motif.

Too bad Motif was crap and is irrelevant today.

>Where is the great web tooling capable to beat Delphi/VB workflows?

One could also reverse the question: where is the Delphi/VB tooling today?

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#84

Post by coldtea »

tasogare wrote: post #76
nicoburns wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canvas isn't far off. The web is excellent for the types of UI that people often want to build for application: nestings of boxes interspersed with text.

So excellent it didn’t have a grid layout until 2018, flexbox landed 2016 and before that there was heated debate for years between table and div to properly align things.

Well, that was then, and this is now.

Even without a grid, people have built more billion dollar software offerings on the web (SaaS) than they have in native form.

(Not that I don't prefer native myself. Just saying).

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#85

Post by coldtea »

anderspitman wrote: post #50
k__ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, Stockholm syndrome isn't a thing. Second, there were a bunch of alternatives and the Web won instead of them and not just because they weren't there. I know, some people like running around telling everybody Qt, GTK, Swing or whatever were or even are better, but they are seemingly not for the points that matter for most of GUI apps. But yes, we should make something better going forward.

> First, Stockholm syndrome isn't a thing. Have you ever had a useful conversation by starting with this?

Yes. The information that "Stockholm syndrome" is a bogus pop psychology theory disputed as to its reality today, has proven extremely useful anytime the core argument of the other side is that something was/is "bad" and has only been retained "because of Stockholm syndrome".

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#86

Post by judge2020 »

coldtea wrote: post #82
anderspitman wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I think there's some stockholm going on here. People use the web for apps because people use the web for apps. It was in the right place at the right time and an extinction event chose JavaScript. That doesn't mean we can't make something better (doesn't mean we can, either).

No, people use the web for apps because: (a) AWT was shitty and Swing an overengineered mess. (b) GTK+ was never decent cross platform. (c) QT was more decent, but had its own issues, and still in an uncanny valley (neither native enough, not its own thing like the web UI is). (d) Cocoa and whatever Windows has this week are not cross platform. (e) Most other alternatives are buggy, understuffed, and just don't look…

> whatever Windows has this week

Just for informative purposes, it's maui - a cross platform .net core UI.

https://github.com/dotnet/maui

Currently predicting Nov 2021 (dates may change)

> .NET MAUI general availability November 2021

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#87

Post by coldtea »

judge2020 wrote: post #86
coldtea wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, people use the web for apps because: (a) AWT was shitty and Swing an overengineered mess. (b) GTK+ was never decent cross platform. (c) QT was more decent, but had its own issues, and still in an uncanny valley (neither native enough, not its own thing like the web UI is). (d) Cocoa and whatever Windows has this week are not cross platform. (e) Most other alternatives are buggy, understuffed, and just don't look…

> whatever Windows has this week Just for informative purposes, it's maui - a cross platform .net core UI. https://github.com/dotnet/maui Currently predicting Nov 2021 (dates may change) > .NET MAUI general availability November 2021

I said it half jockingly, but I have read about over 5 transitions from UI framework to UI framework in Windows-land in the past 25 years...

Haven't even heard of this maui thing -- the last thing I remember was XAML, WPF, etc.

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#88

Post by _TA_12_ »

>> We believe that WebAssembly will be a crucial component for the future of software execution and containerization (not only inside the browser but also outside).

Why? I don't get that or maybe miss some crucial parts or maybe it's just a too enthusiastic statement. I understand the security issues of running external code. Those security issues can be reduced with a sandboxed environment like a WA runtime.

On the server side the vast majority of the industry is running their own code. There are already many options like lambda-functions, hosted container environments, hosted VMs or of course running your own. So why take this extra step? Running plain binaries of your code is easier, faster and more reliable. Building, distributing and running a Go service is actually one of the easiest parts in the whole development and operations chain. Same is true for Rust or .NET Core. Even with Java where you need a runtime I don't see how a WA runtime solves a problem at all when running your own code.

I see great potential where you need to run untrusted code. Customer plugins for some edge server. But that is really a niche in terms of overall market.

Re: Wasmer 1.0

#89

Post by vijaybritto »

_TA_12_ wrote: post #88

>> We believe that WebAssembly will be a crucial component for the future of software execution and containerization (not only inside the browser but also outside). Why? I don't get that or maybe miss some crucial parts or maybe it's just a too enthusiastic statement. I understand the security issues of running external code. Those security issues can be reduced with a sandboxed environment like a WA runtime. On the…

I see the main advantage in this as running a polyglot application as if its native. For example if you are making a Rust application, you can have a plugin architecture where the plugins run inside a wasm compiled python interpreter.

I dont know if doing this directly and cross platform is as easy without wasmer

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