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Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

arstechnica.com

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Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#191

Post by ransom1538 »

ipqk wrote: post #148

Compare this slap on the wrist to Aaron Swartz: Federal prosecutors later charged him with two counts of wire fraud and eleven violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[15] carrying a cumulative maximum penalty of $1 million in fines, 35 years in prison, asset forfeiture, restitution, and supervised release. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

"Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[15]"

You could walk into a liquor store - pistol whip a clerk then rob the joint and do less time. AND at least if you pistol whip a clerk you get parole. You wont get federal parole if you try to guess a computer password [1].

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/is-federal-parole-sy...

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#192

Post by bdowling »

nathanyz wrote: post #155
ipqk wrote: post #148

Compare this slap on the wrist to Aaron Swartz: Federal prosecutors later charged him with two counts of wire fraud and eleven violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[15] carrying a cumulative maximum penalty of $1 million in fines, 35 years in prison, asset forfeiture, restitution, and supervised release. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

It is one of the great imbalances in the justice system where technically corporations are people, but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment.

> ... but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment.

We generally do not punish corporations harshly for criminal wrongdoing because (1) punishing the corporation mostly harms the shareholders, who aren't responsible because they only have indirect control over the corporation, and (2) the individual employees who commit crimes face criminal prosecution and punishment.

[Edit]

I regret that my comment was taken as one endorsing corporations or their shareholders profiting from crimes. That was not my intent.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#193

Post by yowlingcat »

This one is really brazen, isn't it? I always wonder why this kind of nonsense doesn't end in criminal charges for the chain of command involved. On the other hand, historically, the entertainment industry has thrown notoriously heavy hands about to defend its perceived territory. I wonder if this is the price American society pays for patronage of the global entertainment industry.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#195

Post by eropple »

Spivak wrote: post #187
eropple wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is to not make it an affordable option, no matter how rich you are. The only thing the sufficiently rich can't call-and-raise you on is time. Fictional sums of money, sums that may be less than likely to ever really be paid, are more easily reckoned with than jail time.

Still not a great system unfortunately. Time based punishments still disproportionately punish the poor who have less of it. Suffering based punishments hurt everyone equally, they don’t waste a person’s time they could be contributing something positive to the world and can be scaled to fit the crime. One hell of a deterrent too.

Entirely true. There are crimes, particularly ones against the body politic, where it a reasonable disincentive on top of the reparative justice of paying for cleanup, though. Reparations are still important--but those reparations will just not raise enough of a threat to prevent it from being done again. Adding some blood is really the only option.

Because, candidly, the poor aren't dumping toxic waste in factory quantities.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#196

Post by gowld »

bdowling wrote: post #192
nathanyz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one of the great imbalances in the justice system where technically corporations are people, but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment.

> ... but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment. We generally do not punish corporations harshly for criminal wrongdoing because (1) punishing the corporation mostly harms the shareholders, who aren't responsible because they only have indirect control over the corporation, and (2) the individual employees who commit crimes face criminal prosecution and punishment. [Edit] I regret that my…

> punishing the corporation mostly harms the shareholders, who aren't responsible because they only have indirect control over the corporation

Then why should shareholders get the profits from the work they don't comtrol?

> the individual employees who commit crimes face criminal prosecution and punishment.

Do they?

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#197

Post by rectang »

bdowling wrote: post #192
nathanyz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one of the great imbalances in the justice system where technically corporations are people, but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment.

> ... but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment. We generally do not punish corporations harshly for criminal wrongdoing because (1) punishing the corporation mostly harms the shareholders, who aren't responsible because they only have indirect control over the corporation, and (2) the individual employees who commit crimes face criminal prosecution and punishment. [Edit] I regret that my…

> shareholders, who aren't responsible because they only have indirect control over the corporation

That's crime-laundering. Whether it should be punished by criminal prosecution is dubious, but whether it should be punished by investors losing money is not. Otherwise the system manifests a perverse incentive to invest in corporations which commit crimes.

Then again, facilitating criminality by the investor class is the whole point, isn't it?

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#198

Post by atty »

bdowling wrote: post #192
nathanyz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one of the great imbalances in the justice system where technically corporations are people, but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment.

> ... but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment. We generally do not punish corporations harshly for criminal wrongdoing because (1) punishing the corporation mostly harms the shareholders, who aren't responsible because they only have indirect control over the corporation, and (2) the individual employees who commit crimes face criminal prosecution and punishment. [Edit] I regret that my…

I think there’s two points to address here.

1) it’s rare, if ever, that a CEO, CFO or COO faces jail time for crimes the company committed that are similar or worse compared to jail-able offenses by individuals. So your second point doesn’t really happen in practice.

2) shareholders SHOULD be punished for the actions of the company. If my dog maims you because of my negligence to control it, I’m liable. If a corporation knowingly commits crimes, then the CEO (and everyone in the chain down to whoever performed the criminal action) is a criminal, and the board and the shareholders should be liable for not exercising proper control and guidance. When you own something you also take on responsibility for that object. Stocks are no different.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#199

Post by jrochkind1 »

If you're curious what Ticketmaster or it's parent organization LiveNation's revenue is, to compare this fine... it looks like the pandemic predictably took a huge bite out of it, but here are some numbers:

> Third-quarter revenue was about $154 million in 2020 compared to over $3 billion in 2019, with the company — which operates both Live Nation and Ticketmaster — reporting a $173 million loss for its concert business and a $142 million loss for ticketing.

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/live-nation-revenue-dr...

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