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Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

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Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#51

Post by GordonS »

kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

I wonder, is there such a thing as a plane that carries both cargo (in a significant way) and passengers?

Not sure if it would make any economic sense, but maybe it could if the layout could be changed rapidly, with a passenger cabin "slotted in" when needed.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#52

Post by mannykannot »

nickff wrote: post #16
kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

The A340, A380, 727, 747, and L-1011 existed because of the hub-and-spoke model, and the requirement for a minimum of three engines for transoceanic flights. The 777 was the harbinger of their doom, as it brought ETOPS with it. Somewhat tangentially, there is a (strong) argument that twin-engine aircraft are actually safer than three or four engine aircraft. First, they are at lower risk of having an engine problem (…

Where do you get that 133% figure from? you appear to be suggesting that a four-engined aircraft could only tolerate the loss of a single engine, but if that were the case, four-engined aircraft would always have been more vulnerable to loss on account of an engine failure over the ocean than twin-engined ones. The introduction of additional requirements (in terms of stringent maintenance, ancilliary equipment redundancy and proximity of alternative destinations) before ETOPS was permitted strongly suggests that was not the case.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#53

Post by aglionby »

slaw wrote: post #48
nixass wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now Ryanair has almost 200 737-800MAX on order, significant amount of these were added during MAX grounding as the prices went down a lot. Bold looking move again, but still shitiest airliner out there

I am still waiting for refunds from Ryanair for cancelled flights in March.

I'm guessing they won't come unless you chase it. Nothing happened to my refund for May flights until I called, after which the money came within a week.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#54

Post by RyJones »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #3

It's difficult to really get a grasp on Amazon's size but it was a bit eye opening the other day when I was driving down a rural road up in the mountains and passed by an Amazon delivery van. I would have assumed for such a remote location that they'd turn their packages over to the post office to deliver but apparently their delivery service is large enough now to service even the very rural areas.

From another angle, here in the Seattle area, I often see USPS trucks delivering Amazon packages on Sunday.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#55

Post by phobosanomaly »

jfim wrote: post #35
fumar wrote: post #23

Do customers gain from Amazon's increased footprint? They are like a super organism growing and controlling distribution paths. Have there been other companies like Amazon in capitalist history? Google?

Probably this one, over four hundred years ago: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company

Super interesting comparison.

From the Wikipedia article:

"...the company traded with Indianised Southeast Asian countries when the Dutch government granted it a 21-year monopoly on the Dutch spice trade."

It's a dumb comparison, I know, but it strikes me as similar to how Amazon wound up with a pseudo-monopoly on many goods during the pandemic as brick-and-mortars were shuttered.

And a quote in a quote from the article:

"The Dutch, it seems, more than anyone in the West since the palmy days of ancient Rome, had more money than they knew what to do with. They discovered, unlike the Romans, that the best use of money was to make more money."

Weirdly apropos.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#56

Post by shiftpgdn »

GordonS wrote: post #51
kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

I wonder, is there such a thing as a plane that carries both cargo (in a significant way) and passengers? Not sure if it would make any economic sense, but maybe it could if the layout could be changed rapidly, with a passenger cabin "slotted in" when needed.

That's already the case. USPS relied heavily on being able to move cargo in the belly of passenger planes which lead to disruptions this year. You can also fairly quickly take all the seats out of most passenger planes since they're just stuck in there with L track.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#57

Post by cptskippy »

cosmodisk wrote: post #25

Here in the UK, Amazon dumped some of the largest last mile logistics companies and rolled out their own fleet of delivery vans.

They've done it in the US as well. Pretty much every last mile logistics company in the US is beyond awful.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#58

Post by nickff »

mannykannot wrote: post #52
nickff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The A340, A380, 727, 747, and L-1011 existed because of the hub-and-spoke model, and the requirement for a minimum of three engines for transoceanic flights. The 777 was the harbinger of their doom, as it brought ETOPS with it. Somewhat tangentially, there is a (strong) argument that twin-engine aircraft are actually safer than three or four engine aircraft. First, they are at lower risk of having an engine problem (…

Where do you get that 133% figure from? you appear to be suggesting that a four-engined aircraft could only tolerate the loss of a single engine, but if that were the case, four-engined aircraft would always have been more vulnerable to loss on account of an engine failure over the ocean than twin-engined ones. The introduction of additional requirements (in terms of stringent maintenance, ancilliary equipment redund…

If the aircraft is required to fly at a certain performance level with one engine out, a 4 engine aircraft must have 4/3x100% of minimum required power when in nominal operating condition, a 2 engine aircraft must have 2/1x100%...

I first heard this from a lecture by Henry Pohl (a truly brilliant engineer): https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-...

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#60

Post by leesalminen »

GordonS wrote: post #51
kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

I wonder, is there such a thing as a plane that carries both cargo (in a significant way) and passengers? Not sure if it would make any economic sense, but maybe it could if the layout could be changed rapidly, with a passenger cabin "slotted in" when needed.

I saw a TV show called Ice Pilots years ago which focused on an airline in the northern parts of Canada. If memory serves, they flied planes that had a configurable cabin where they could add rows of seats as needed and a divider leaving the rest for cargo.
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