Live data from Hacker News

Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

bloombergquint.com

231–240 of 331 posts

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. House prices rise to the point where the down payment is essentially the price of the house. The house price itself becomes imaginary. What you are really worried about is the down payment. Yes and no. This is also true in all markets. No one really buys a house based on the price. They buy it based on the monthly payment (price - down payment and interest rate). The price alone is mostly irrelevant for the buye…

> The price alone is mostly irrelevant for the buyer. Sorry but wow. This is not the kind of comment I expect on HN, but rather from my uncle: “We got this new Lexus, it’s only $500/month!” “Yes, for 200 years”

An important difference is that cars are a purchase with an expected eventual value of close to zero where as houses are typically seen as an investment with a goal of being to eventually sell it for more than you paid for it.

This means that car payments are more of a cost of ownership and house payments are more of a reoccurring investment.

As long as the house is actually a good investment, being able to afford the down and monthly payments is the most important thing. Rather than spending vs saving/investing, the trade-off becomes more of investing in real estate vs investing in something else.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#232
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geneva is surrounded by mountains and a lake, it's hard to build more. Similarly for Zurich, there are significant hills around and most flat space is already built up.

I think it's not just that but the fact that the country is literally packed. It's about 2/3 of my country's size,yet has 3 times more people. Haven't been to Switzerland but I can imagine most parks and other public spaces must feel quite full with people.

Switzerland is only the 13th most dense country in Europe. Notably, the UK and Germany are more dense.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can't talk about Geneva or Zurich because both cities are very expensive. But generally, prices are going up, the down payment is normally 20% of the price. This is one problem, another one is how they calculate the risk. The "law" is you have to be able to pay the mortgage at 5% and that 5% cannot be more than 1/3 of your income. So if you buy a 1.25m house and take a 1m mortgage 5% is of that is 50k, so you…

1/3 of your income OK, but why 5%? Are these variable rate mortgages?!

Fixed interest mortgages in Switzerland are usually only up to 10 years. The 5% underwriting limit is used to minimize the interest risk.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can't talk about Geneva or Zurich because both cities are very expensive. But generally, prices are going up, the down payment is normally 20% of the price. This is one problem, another one is how they calculate the risk. The "law" is you have to be able to pay the mortgage at 5% and that 5% cannot be more than 1/3 of your income. So if you buy a 1.25m house and take a 1m mortgage 5% is of that is 50k, so you…

1/3 of your income OK, but why 5%? Are these variable rate mortgages?!

5% is more or less the long term average mortgage rate.

Owners generally keep a mortgage on their property (~65% of the property value) to off-set wealth and property taxes. Residences are taxed by their estimated rental values, which is treated as income. Interest payments are tax deductible, while the principal on the mortgage lowers the amount owned for wealth taxes.

The other issue is that most primary mortgages don't allow for early repayment, meaning that the principal either has to be payed off in full or refinanced once the payment period is over. Owners become conditioned to continuously roll over the principal on their primary mortgage.

To answer your question, because the expectation is that residential property will be mortgaged through out the entire ownership period, banks have to make sure that someone who can afford the payment on a 1% mortgage can also afford the payment on a mortgage refinance if and when rates eventually go up.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#235
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But generally, prices are going up This can be resolved any time cities want to build a lot more housing: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/anti-growt... . Outside of Tokyo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16704501 , no or very few cities in the Industrialized world have chosen to simply build lots of housing, which will tend to bring prices down towards the cost of construction.

Geneva is surrounded by mountains and a lake, it's hard to build more. Similarly for Zurich, there are significant hills around and most flat space is already built up.

Zoning is also an issue.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#236
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's not just that but the fact that the country is literally packed. It's about 2/3 of my country's size,yet has 3 times more people. Haven't been to Switzerland but I can imagine most parks and other public spaces must feel quite full with people.

Switzerland is only the 13th most dense country in Europe. Notably, the UK and Germany are more dense.

You can easily double it, because neither Germany nor UK have mountains covering half of the country.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#237
Bought an apartment in Germany this year. My effective interest rate is 0.74% fixed 20 years with a downpayment of 40%. The bank guy said the bank will make no money on this loan. They do it anyway because they want the object in the portfolio. Inflation in the housing market has been tremendous in the last years in germany.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this work the same way in Europe?

Its works the same across the world as everywhere there is fractional reserve banking. The other "Shariah Banking" is also just repackaged fractional reserve banking.

As a Muslim, almost every "Shariah compliant" financing contract I came across is not compatible with Islamic Law (Shariah). Unfortunately, we're just taking modern parasitic and usurious financial contracts, and wrapping them under "Islamic" terms, and selling them as such. Any actual investigation of such contracts reveals that they're nothing but interest and usury in disguise. Islam seriously warns about this sort of behavior.

Under Islam, loans are are strictly an act of charity. There can be absolutely no contractual obligation for the lender to receive any benefit of any kind (monetary or otherwise) from the borrower in return for the loan. The borrower is encouraged to return more than the amount he borrowed, purely as a show of gratitude, but it can in no way be part of the contract, and in no way implied one way or another (like "off the record" sort of thing).

True Islamic finance is pro risk sharing, with no exploitative and parasitic practices that we see today. Want to start a business? Pitch your idea to an investor willing to put money into it, you put in the effort and he (or multiple investors) puts in the money. If the business succeeds, all parties benefit, if it fails, investors lose their money, and you lose the time and effort you put into it. Fair across the board. Zero debt.

Applying actual Islamic finance rules, we would immediately rule out things like stock shorting, put and call options, margin and leverage trading, mortgages, interest bearing loans, selling debt for debt, and so on. Now you can bet that Wall Street won't be happy, but time and time again those practices have proven destructive to the economy, and further increase the wage divide.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The price alone is mostly irrelevant for the buyer. The price is certainly relevant when it comes time to sell, and a high price due to low interest rates leaves you more vulnerable to price shocks in the event rates need to rise. Of course we haven't seen any major price depreciation due to rate increases in the last few decades :)

Sure, but the point is the buyer only looks at the price as a function of the payment they can afford. If the buyer can afford 2k/month they don't really care which part moves. Rates or price? If that means high rates and lower price? Fine. Low rates and higher price? Fine, but carries more risk as you (and I pointed out).

If you can count on stable employment for the next 20 years, you can make a plan like that. Otherwise your fallback might be to sell the house before it's paid off.

From a HN perspective, this means it's hard to buy a house and do a startup; you'll never accumulate enough savings to reduce the risk.

In the inflation-adjusted past, you had the option to save up $100k or get a $5k/month mortgage; now you have the option to save up $1M or get a $5k/month mortgage. The monthly payment hasn't changed but the space of options and (and their risks) certainly have.

Re: Danes Get 20-Year 0% Mortgages

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You expect people on HackerNews to not accurately represent how society views something? There's a reason why the phrase "what's my monthly?" is a thing. Car dealers pushing 7 to 8 year loans is because people are worried about their "monthly." Same for rent-to-own places, mobile companies, and everyone else in the lending business.

When I decide to buy a $25k car because that's as much as I'm willing to spend I still need to determine what my "monthly" is. It matters what my monthly is because it is _a loan_ that I need to pay back every month. If I didn't need to think about what the monthly payment was I wouldn't need to take out a loan (unless I guess you got a magical loan that could only be paid off as a lump sum?). You're implying "worryi…

>You're implying "worrying about" or wanting to know what the monthly payment is on a loan is a bad thing and I don't understand why.

I stopped into a car dealer to look at a vehicle a couple years ago. I liked how it drove, could pay cash, but wasn't opposed to taking out a loan if I could get a better price overall (sometimes possible with fees banks pay to used dealers for getting a loan originated).

In my experience, they brought out a sheet of paper with a range of what the monthly payment would be. I asked about interest rate, and the sales guy had no idea what interest rates the payments equated to - but he could get me an exact payment after doing a hard pull on my credit. They resisted negotiating on the total cost of the vehicle, but were very willing to extend the loan out to make the payment exactly what I wanted/could afford.

I could see it wasn't going anywhere, told them to call me if they get serious about reducing the price, and left. I found a great car on the private market a short time later.

Post reply on HN