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Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

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Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#11

Post by kd913 »

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions.

Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines.

Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greater density of packing?

I am guessing this is something to do with fuel savings, and new composite materials meaning that smaller planes are still more efficient. However, would that necessarily apply to recent 747s/a380s which I think have composite materials and can be retrofitted to efficient engines? I figure these specific planes must be on sale as they are withdrawn from service so I am curious about the use of 767s here.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#12

Post by Theodores »

kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

The 767s are twin engine and more efficient than the 747.

The A380 never was a cargo plane, big that it is. It also has the four engines with the added maintenance.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#13

Post by xvf22 »

kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

Cargo companies seem to have older fleets and the 767s are being displaced from passenger service and have a cargo conversation option. The a380 doesn't have a cargo conversation option as far as I've seen. Plenty of old 747s are in service for cargo flights. Kalitta air has a bunch of older 747s and Atlas has a sizable fleet including some 8Fs.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#14

Post by jaywalk »

jandrese wrote: post #10
tidepod12 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of note, all of those 66 planes are leased from and operated by other cargo airlines, like Atlas Air. Amazon doesn't own the planes or employ the pilots, they just lease the ability to paint the Amazon logo on the side and have the planes fly routes they choose. It's unclear if the planes mentioned in the OP are talking about Amazon actually outright purchasing planes (which would be a first) or if they are just leas…

I wonder if this means they'll be hiring their own pilots? Or are they buying the aircraft and then leasing them out to an air freight company to handle the operations? Basically the same situation but better for Amazon's taxes.

They'll almost certainly have another company handling operations and maintenance.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#16

Post by nickff »

kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

The A340, A380, 727, 747, and L-1011 existed because of the hub-and-spoke model, and the requirement for a minimum of three engines for transoceanic flights. The 777 was the harbinger of their doom, as it brought ETOPS with it.

Somewhat tangentially, there is a (strong) argument that twin-engine aircraft are actually safer than three or four engine aircraft. First, they are at lower risk of having an engine problem (as they have fewer engines). Second, the requirements all focus on having sufficient performance with a single engine out, which means that a twin engine aircraft normally has at least 200% of the power required to keep it aloft, whereas the four-engine aircraft only has 133% of what it needs. Given that many problems can be solved with a sufficient application of power, the twin-engine airplane is actually at an advantage!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#17

Post by discodave »

tidepod12 wrote: post #7
recursion wrote: post #5

The sheer size of Amazon is mind boggling. Is there anywhere they've opened their logistics network to other operators yet? Like AWS but for their logistics.

Isn't "logistics as a service" pretty much what Fulfillment By Amazon is? I could be totally wrong, but based on the past stories I've read about Amazon's negotiations with UPS and their growth of their own delivery network, I'd be surprised if they have much spare logistics capacity to open up to anyone outside the immediate Amazon ecosystem.

> Isn't "logistics as a service" pretty much what Fulfillment By Amazon is?

There is a lot of crossover between FBA, and a UPS or FedEx, but it's not 100%. FBA is basically B2C, as opposed to B2B or C2C.

Back during the "peak lockdown" of April/May 2020, a little birdie told me about some of the steps that Amazon was taking to give the warehouses and delivery network a break from the increased demand. In other words, Amazon saw lots of unexpected growth due to the pandemic. It wouldn't surprise me if plans to launch "Amazon Logistics" or whatever as a separate line of business got pushed back due to the pandemic.

Edit: I know for a fact that the leadership of the Logistics part of Amazon has expressed a desire to become the "4th flywheel" of Amazon, which is Amazon-speak for being a self sustaining, revenue generating line of business. But as you allude to, they have to soak up all the demand generated from the Amazon consumer business first.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#18

Post by formercoder »

xvf22 wrote: post #13
kd913 wrote: post #11

I remember watching a video from Wendover Production talking about the decline of 747 and A380s mainly due to a lack of guaranteed passengers to fill the plane routes in both directions. Exceptions being some airlines which are able to operate hub and spoke models and where fuel is cheap like the middle east airlines. Wouldn't these types of planes be more suitable for a role in logistics which can benefit the greate…

Cargo companies seem to have older fleets and the 767s are being displaced from passenger service and have a cargo conversation option. The a380 doesn't have a cargo conversation option as far as I've seen. Plenty of old 747s are in service for cargo flights. Kalitta air has a bunch of older 747s and Atlas has a sizable fleet including some 8Fs.

Pretty sure I’ve read there will never be a cargo a380 because its max takeoff weight is low compared to its volume.

Re: Amazon buys 11 Boeing 767s to expand its cargo fleet

#20

Post by [deleted] »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #3

It's difficult to really get a grasp on Amazon's size but it was a bit eye opening the other day when I was driving down a rural road up in the mountains and passed by an Amazon delivery van. I would have assumed for such a remote location that they'd turn their packages over to the post office to deliver but apparently their delivery service is large enough now to service even the very rural areas.

[deleted]
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