Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#11

Post by branweb » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

monkeyfacebag wrote: post #3

Shadow of the Torturer is one of my all time favorite books. I confess I was less impressed with the rest of the Book of the New Sun as the world seemed to constrict as it went on, rather than expand. In spite of that, I think they're all worth reading.

I love the series but I think this is an astute observation...though I have trouble articulating why I agree with this. I wonder if the world constricts or if its possibiilties just narrow (as they necessarily must) as the story plays out?

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#12

Post by saberience » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

branweb wrote: post #11

monkeyfacebag wrote: post #3

Shadow of the Torturer is one of my all time favorite books. I confess I was less impressed with the rest of the Book of the New Sun as the world seemed to constrict as it went on, rather than expand. In spite of that, I think they're all worth reading.

I love the series but I think this is an astute observation...though I have trouble articulating why I agree with this. I wonder if the world constricts or if its possibiilties just narrow (as they necessarily must) as the story plays out?

I don't agree with it, but I can perhaps see that as you go through the story, more about the setting and "universe" of the novel is explained and revealed and so it means that your imagination cannot invent as many possibilities for "why things are as they are."

When you start reading the book it could be anywhere and anywhen and you have no idea about the wider universe and setting and inevitably possibilities start to shrink as you read and come to understand the bigger picture.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#13

Post by strifey » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

saberience wrote: post #7

For all those who are saying now "Who's Gene Wolfe??" I strongly, strongly, urge you to read his tetralogy "The Book of The New Sun," it's one of the finest sci-fi/fantasy series I've ever read and I have a pretty damn critical taste when it comes to literature. (not trying to sound snobby by the way, I just don't praise books like these lightly or without good reason) So I love Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, M…

I would concur with this. Wolfe and Le Guin, to me, both write sci-fi/fantasy as literature while also closely using themes that most would consider "genre fiction".

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#14

Post by saberience » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

ak217 wrote: post #9

I find it hard to appreciate art that revels in torture, graphic violence and emotional abuse as an end unto itself. If you want an example of science fiction as high art, personally I would suggest Vernor Vinge (specifically A Fire Upon the Deep and A Deepness in the Sky ) and Ursula Le Guin.

I wouldn't agree that BOTNS "revels" in violence or torture at all. I personally wouldn't enjoy a book that revels in torture or violence, but I've read the BOTNS series many times (5 or 6). Sevarian clearly doesn't enjoy his path nor does he "revel" in it and if anything he generally tries to avoid violence. Gene Wolfe as a man clearly doesn't focus on violence and certainly doesn't celebrate it, it's just a small but real part of the world both in reality and BOTNS, and I think it's an important thing we have to explore in art, which is the violence of man to man, why it exists, why we do these things.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#15

Post by TeaDrunk » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

I think there are many definitions of High Art here. This Is How You Lose The Time War is something I'd recommend also, to compare and contrast what is considered emotionally vivid, beautiful prose, and challenging literature in science fiction now compared to Gene Wolfe. It's super fascinating to see how some things have changed in its definition of the pinnacle of the art and how others have stayed the same.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#16

Post by saberience » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

strifey wrote: post #13

saberience wrote: post #7

For all those who are saying now "Who's Gene Wolfe??" I strongly, strongly, urge you to read his tetralogy "The Book of The New Sun," it's one of the finest sci-fi/fantasy series I've ever read and I have a pretty damn critical taste when it comes to literature. (not trying to sound snobby by the way, I just don't praise books like these lightly or without good reason) So I love Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion, M…

I would concur with this. Wolfe and Le Guin, to me, both write sci-fi/fantasy as literature while also closely using themes that most would consider "genre fiction".

Agreed with Le Guin, I love the Earthsea books, which are more than simple fantasy and have a beautiful spiritual and philosophical quality.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#17

Post by yborg » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

Also recommend The Book of the Long Sun and its sequel, set loosely in the same universe as Book of the New Sun.

He was an industrial engineer by training, and was a senior editor on the staff of the journal Plant Engineering. This always tickles me given how that has to be the absolute nether pole of his own writing.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#18

Post by bouvin » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

Gene Wolfe is one of my favourite authors, and his works more than most reward careful (re-)readings. To that end, I can highly recommend Alzabo Soup [1], a podcast delving into first Book of the New Sun (and currently Book of the Long Sun) in very deep detail (it took them a couple of years, with weekly 2 hour episodes to make it through BoNW). I reread along with the podcasts, and it was well worth it.

[1] https://alzabosoup.libsyn.com

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#19

Post by zabzonk » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

I wouldn't really class Wolfe's books as SF or fantasy, but more as extended puzzles. Particularly in the case of the "New Sun" books, but also with the "Long Sun" ones, you spend a lot of time trying to work out what the heck is going on - and most times failing. But they are definitely well worth reading.

Re: Gene Wolfe Turned Science Fiction into High Art (2019)

#20

Post by aardvark179 » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

laurex wrote: post #2

The Book of the New Sun is amazing simply for the language. I actually thought he was simply making up words until I got out a dictionary and discovered that his vocabulary simply far surpassed mine, and mine isn't terrible.

He has always been incredibly clever in his use of language. The names of people in BotNS had me checking in a dictionary of saints (and books on mythological monsters for the non people) to try and gleam more meaning from them, and I remember a moment of wonder when I realised the aliens’ speech was weird because they always have an even number of syllables in each sentence.

His books are incredible and really pay off careful rereading.