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Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

theguardian.com

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Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#201

Post by [deleted] »

ForHackernews wrote: post #111
toomuchtodo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sour grapes. No one was racing to buy Leafs and Bolts, nor EVs with no DC fast charging network. People wanted a great car that happened to be electric, not anemic golf carts.

By all accounts the Leaf and Bolt are great cars (to say nothing of the Toyota Prius & friends), they just don't have the cachet as a status symbol that Tesla does. I think it's similar to how the iPhone is the sexy mobile, but there's actually far more cheapo Android devices and feature-phones out there in use.

[deleted]

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#202

Post by kwhitefoot »

gamblor956 wrote: post #161
kwhitefoot wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't buy an ID until VW sort out the climate control and entertainment system. Currently quite a few Norwegian ID.3 owners are reluctant to drive them for fear of suddenly losing visibility when the climate control misbehaves: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https:/...

It's like how people are scared to buy Teslas because the car might drive them into a truck or center divider and kill them...

No it isn't. The ID.3 problems are real, VW are working on software updates to fix the problems and have emailed the owners to provide instructions for work arounds.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#203

Post by audunw »

lldbg wrote: post #2

Sell oil, buy electric cars. Is this the definition of hypocrisy? At least it is better than the alternative, sell oil and buy fossile fuel cars. Edit: I would like to rephrase the last sentence as "At least it is better than _an_ alternative, which is to sell oil and buy fossile fuel cars." which is a fairer categorisation of the problem space and less consumerist.

> Sell oil, buy electric cars. Is this the definition of hypocrisy?

In what way? It's not like Norway is responsible for the worlds dependence on oil, or that they've ever claimed that they're saving the world. They haven't said that others should stop using oil/gasoline right now either. They're just trying their best to help develop alternatives.

If you have oil, what's the third alternative? Should Norway just not have extracted any of its oil ever? Is that realistic to expect? Would it even have helped in any way, or would it just be offset by increased production in the middle east?

It's a huge discussion around this in Norway btw. The green party wants to cut all oil production by 2035. Obviously it's not very popular, although the green party has been growing quite well recently. The main argument against it is that cutting oil/gas production will easily be offset by other nations, most of which have worse CO2/methane pollution from their oil/gas production, and cutting gas to Germany could increase coal usage. It has been a big focus on that in Norway, to the point that Equinor is building a wind power plant to supply oil rigs with cleaner electricity rather than burning gas in inefficient power plants on the oil rigs. Of course, a lot of people are saying that this is green washing. Personally I'm ambivalent. Cutting production early would send a very strong signal, and could perhaps push other countries to cut oil/gas use, but at least building those off-shore wind power plants will help reduce cost of off-shore wind.

Norway is not the "good guy" here, but then nobody is. Everyone that has cheap/easy access to oil reserves has developed them. Expecting anybody to do otherwise is naive. Everyone in the world is hopelessly dependent on oil. We're all product of the circumstances of the 20th century, and all we can do is to try to do the best we can going forward.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#204

Post by kingnothing »

kingnothing wrote: post #200
hcurtiss wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This all depends on your definition of "subsidy." https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...

That article was written by Drilling Info and reads like a lobbying piece. Here's some info on that company: Drilling Info has more than 2,700 accounts globally with more than 20,000 users. Drilling Info members produce more than 90 percent of domestic oil and gas in the United States. They're in the oil and gas business -- of course they want to "debunk" any info about the subsidies given to that industry.

I'll take one point from that article as an example of BS:

"Intangible Drilling Costs ($3.5 billion “subsidy” – low estimate is $780 million) - Intangible Drilling Costs are essentially the cost of drilling a new well that have no salvageable value. Currently, most exploration companies are allowed to deduct 100% of the costs in the year they are incurred with the majors able to deduct 70% of the costs immediately with the remaining 30% amortized over 5 years. In what world would money spent that may or may not be recovered be capitalized as an asset?"

Plenty of companies spend plenty of money on R&D every year that goes nowhere. For some reason, the oil & gas industry gets a refund on their exploration but other companies don't. I work in R&D in tech -- should the government fund my complete salary for projects that turn out to not be viable? Sounds great if you're an entrepreneur -- start all the companies you want and get refunded by the government for all of your misses.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#205

Post by CydeWeys »

giantg2 wrote: post #54
cbmuser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a car in Norway or even from abroad has always been very expensive because of the taxes Norway poses on regular cars: > https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/duties/cars-and-other-... Electric cars are exempt from these taxes which is why they are so attractive in Norway for customers. Electric cars are also exempt from road fees. Overall, electric cars in Norway are still getting 2.4 billion USD subsidies per…

Are there any suggestions for how to replace lost revenue that would support infrastructure like roads? In the US roads are mostly maintained by taxes on gas. I would think taxing tires might be a decent replacement, but I haven't seen much conversation on the issue.

> In the US roads are mostly maintained by taxes on gas.

This is a common misconception. Most road funding comes from the Fed and state/local income and property taxes. Gasoline taxes exist but do not comprise the majority of funding. It's important to emphasize this because I pay a LOT in taxes but don't even so much as own a car, so I'm paying way more than my fair share for road upkeep.

The solution would be simple -- tax based on odometer reading (and do it federally, so you can't get around it by moving cars between states). Every year as part of your taxes you'd look at your odometer and then pay an amount per mile driven since last year, and periodic vehicle registration renewals would keep people honest (there'd be the same kind of penalty fee there as for paying taxes late). So long as all the states require vehicle registration and send that data to the feds, it'll work. The states could also have their own tax on top.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#206

Post by CydeWeys »

throwaway-8c93 wrote: post #193
epistasis wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As awful as Tesla is, all the other car manufacturing companies are far far worse. Even with massive government incentives, even with their massive war chests, even with their massive production capacity, even with their access to capital markets for big investments, even then , they didn't make the smart move and had to be shown the path by an annoying megalomaniac who gets way too much attention. So yes, I regret g…

The automakers' behavior makes much more sense once you assume they did their homework, and came out with the same conclusion as everyone else: that the future of personal transport is in battery electric vehicles, and that future implies lower service revenue, slower upgrade cycle, fewer possibilities for brand differentiation, obsolescence of their patent portfolio and large layoffs. Based on that conclusion, they…

That strategy was only the best if you assumed someone like a Tesla wouldn't come along. However, a Tesla did come along, and as a result, Tesla now controls an ungodly fraction of the total worldwide automaker value.

Basically, it was a bad strategy, as it was practically inevitable that at some point someone would "defect" and do BEVs. Not only did the automakers use a bad strategy, but they failed to pivot from that strategy once it was already blown to hell. Any one of them could be worth a lot more money now if they had simply taken EVs as seriously as Tesla did a decade ago. But none did.

Same problem with Kodak. The new technology is inevitable, and while you may delay it, you're killing your future by doing so. It's short term thinking.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#207

Post by kwhitefoot »

lastofthemojito wrote: post #191
kwhitefoot wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are all those people who walk around the city going to get there? Norwegians live in quite scattered communities and even though we have better public transport that some other countries it really isn't convenient to time your visit to the nearest town and shopping centre to coincide with the bus timetable. For me a trip to the centre of the nearest town (Drammen, Norway) means a forty minute bus ride and the bus…

Sadly, the problem of designing convenient, efficient, cost-effective public transportation is beyond the capabilities of this HNer. I was merely trying to translate the OP's comment as a lot of people seemed to be missing its intent. As a side note I've only visited Norway once (and would love to return), but I've heard the phrase "Det finnes ikke dårlig vær, bare dårlig klær/There's no such thing as bad weather, on…

I've spent thousands of hours waiting for buses in the rain and yes that rhyme could well be the national motto. But still it's not much fun with bags of shopping and small children.

But I can undash your stereotype: I'm English. Mind you my boss did once say to me "Du har blitt en ekte Viking."; the previous day I had walked out of the office to go home dressed only in a light jumper and shorts while it was tipping it down. It was summer so not too cold and anyway where I come from the rain comes sideways from the Atlantic.

Glad to hear you liked it here, perhaps you'll get a chance to come back once COVID-19 is sorted out.

> the problem of designing convenient, efficient, cost-effective public transportation is beyond the capabilities of this HNer.

You are not alone. I certainly can't do it and it seems to be beyond the local authorities here. Actually I wonder if it might actually be provably impossible.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#208

Post by CydeWeys »

clouddrover wrote: post #198
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've hit on something that a lot of the detractors of Tesla have seemed to have forgotten. The alternatives are Ford, Chevy, Honda and Toyota. While I fully understand that Tesla is no titan of the little man and Musk is a very flawed man, compared to the titans of industry and the sins of the past that these companies are responsible for, it's a little odd that so much vitriol gets thrown toward Tesla and…

> I haven't even mentioned how Tesla is the only company that doesn't sponsor at least one (I think they all sponsor multiple) traditionally powered racing teams, whose development goes into premium powered, traditional gas powered automobiles. Not exclusively. Formula 1 and Le Mans use hybrid engines. Formula E and Extreme E are battery electric racing series. Why doesn't Tesla have a Formula E team?

Because motorsport is a giant unprofitable waste of money. The only value they get out of it is advertising their brand, and Tesla doesn't advertise.

Why would Tesla spend the minimum tens of millions of dollars to get into what is at best a side diversion from their main business? They certainly have better uses for that capital and talent.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#209

Post by lallysingh »

mhh__ wrote: post #101
toomuchtodo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sour grapes. No one was racing to buy Leafs and Bolts, nor EVs with no DC fast charging network. People wanted a great car that happened to be electric, not anemic golf carts.

What's wrong with the Leaf? Some people just want a car that goes from A to B rather than a to flex on the plebs in a musk-mobile, good as they are.

Up until 2015 the leaf's max range was 84 miles. Teslas were never nearly that low: 220 (3 v1), 244 (roadster v1). 249 (S v1). The leaf now has 107 with it's biggest battery.

Tesla's big bet on the supercharger network was the game changer. Before that, EVs we're only a 'second car' for commuting. With the SC network, an EV was parity with ICs, not a set of green/cost tradeoffs.

Re: Electric cars make up 54% of cars sold in Norway in 2020

#210

Post by CydeWeys »

mhh__ wrote: post #195
gambiting wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>That's your job and its called driving. If you cant handle that simple task then you should not be driving. Ah, the "just suck it up and man up" argument. Lovely. I hope you drive a manual car with no power steering no power brakes and no abs. Heaven forbid the car helped you with the sacred art of driving, right?

ABS and power steering are a totally different kettle-of-fish to the car actually steering itself.

People have always resisted change in the automotive market, whether it be with ABS, power steering, starter motors, electronic stability control, seat belts, air bags, traction control, cruise control, automatic shifting, etc.

You aren't making a unique argument about lane keeping that wasn't made about all these other improved technologies in decades past.

In the near future people might not even be driving their cars at all. What excuse are you gonna have then as for why people actually shouldn't demand that manufacturers provide that feature?

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