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Parable of Alien Chess

lukesmith.xyz

141–150 of 176 posts

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#141

This is one of the main sins of postmodernism: the thought that because all view points are tenable, all are correct. The scientific method is based on accuracy of prediction, otherwise we are not talking about science anymore. That's not bad, and many a researcher could do with the realization that maths and models are not the best way to describe all things. It's a different ballgame though.

>This is one of the main sins of postmodernism: the thought that because all view points are tenable, all are correct.

I'm not aware of any 'postmodern' thinker who has expounded this philosophy.

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For one, it's not the case that overall white and black win 50% of the time each. He addresses that (first-move advantage from white moving first) in the parenthesis after that same sentence: "After extensive experimentation, they realize this: 50% of the time, the white player wins and 50% of the time, the black player wins (we'll ignore draws and any first-move advantage for the example). "

When I look at a master database, White wins about 33% of the time, black wins about 25% and the rest of the games are draws. The aliens would have to be pretty terrible at statistics to ignore draws and first mover advantage when they are clearly extremely important. It is difficult to relate to an analogy which is so divergent from the basic facts.

So instead of a coin toss it's a 12 sided dice where 4 sides are white wins, 3 sides are black wins, and 5 sides are draw.

Changing the weights of your random number generator doesn't lead to a better understanding of how chess works.

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand - you don't always play black in chess. So on average white wins 50% of the time (modulo first move advantage and draws as the article states).

But they can observe that Alice always wins when playing against Bob. (If they somehow can determine that one player is black and the other is white, they probably can also distinguish the players as well?)

They can't see a chess piece but they can see humans well enough to tell them apart?

Analogies don't work if you deliberately make assumptions that are inconsistent with what they are trying to convey.

We could rephrase the analogy such that the aliens are listening to a specific broadcast from earth from 1000 light years away. Some percentage of the time the broadcast is "White won", the rest of the time the broadcast is "White lost." Is it reasonable to assume that it's a game of pure chance just because you don't have a good method of predicting the outcome?

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#144

The central thesis of the article is supported mostly by the argument "Yeah, it is dude." Ignoring the weakness of the analogy, there is a reason science is "about models" and not about truth: We can measure and test models, and we cannot measure and test truth. A theory that is more complex and fits the data worse is a less good theory because it is easier to get stuck in. If I have two new theories with this proper…

This was the only part of an otherwise great post I objected to. Science may have a side effect of uncovering truth but it shouldn't be the driving force. We should be striving for better predictive ability that doesn't go against our observations. Arguing which is more real is not science.

Drop some heavy objects and some light objects you have lying around. You will see that the heavier ones tend to fall faster than the light objects. If all you care about is predicting which object will fall faster, you could simply say gravity pulls the heavier one faster and call it a day.

But if you were to forego predictive power and seek understanding, you'd eventually see that objects fundamentally fall at the same rate, and a confounding factor of air resistance was the reason for the observed discrepency. With this deeper understanding, you can make models of gravity and fluid dynamics which are not just more accurate for the specific cases you measured, but also extensible to other cases like the orbits of planets.

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#145
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I look at a master database, White wins about 33% of the time, black wins about 25% and the rest of the games are draws. The aliens would have to be pretty terrible at statistics to ignore draws and first mover advantage when they are clearly extremely important. It is difficult to relate to an analogy which is so divergent from the basic facts.

So instead of a coin toss it's a 12 sided dice where 4 sides are white wins, 3 sides are black wins, and 5 sides are draw. Changing the weights of your random number generator doesn't lead to a better understanding of how chess works.

That was one example of how the author proposes an extremely inadequate analogy. The fact that you can propose an improvement so easily demonstrates this.

It's also very clearly a problem that it ignores player skill, time control and all sorts of other factors that would be basic to any kind of model claiming to have power in predicting chess outcomes.

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that the author is taking aim at a rather simple, outdated and largely superseded philosophical notion of what science is. While there are probably cases of social and institutional pressure being applied to discourage fringe theories, there seems to be a lively opposition to each of string theory, dark matter and dark energy.

> a rather simple, outdated and largely superseded philosophical notion of what science is To me the idea of treating the chess game as a random process somehow felt like an anti-realist position [1]. I'm not sure how this kind of thinking is currently perceived by philosophers of science, it's possible it's an outdated view. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism

That's an interesting way of looking at it, but if that is the intent of the parable, it is being rather equivocal about it. As I pointed out in another reply, unless the amount of information the aliens can possibly get about chess games is severely limited (excluding, for example, information that would allow them to see that games between specific pairs of players are rarely even-odds) then chess does not actually look like a random process - but if they are limited to that extent, then they are not going to determine that it is a game of rules, no matter what their philosophy and no matter how much they suspect that it is.

There is nothing unrealistic about random processes, and if the aliens take chess to be one, they are simply mistaken on account of their inability to get sufficient information to falsify this view.

There is a pretty well-known historical example in the opposition by Ernst Mach and the logical positivists to Boltzmann's work. I hope it is safe to say that the simplistic philosophical notions behind that opposition are now outdated and superseded.

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#147
post #19

I suspect the metaphor is inspired by Feynman's one about gods playing chess [1]. As it's almost always the case, Feynman manages to immediately inspire and illuminate. On the other hand, the present article seems to me to get some important things wrong. For one, it's not the case that overall white and black win 50% of the time each. More importantly though, if somebody is interested in investigating chess, they wi…

I figured this was a riff on Jayes. From Chapter 10, section 8 of "Probability Theory: The Logic of Science" (starting on page 329).

     10.8  Mechanics under the clouds
"We are fortunate that the principles of Newtonian mechanics could be developed and verified to great accuracy by studying astronomical phenomena, where friction and turbulence do not complicate what we see. But suppose the Earth were, like Venus, enclosed perpetually in thick clouds. The very existence of an external universe would be unknown for a longtime, and to develop the laws of mechanics we would be dependent on the observations we could make locally.

Since tossing of small objects is nearly the first activity of every child, it would be observed very early that they do not always fall with the same side up, and that all one’s efforts to control the outcome are in vain. The natural hypothesis would be that it is the volition of the object tossed, not the volition of the tosser, that determines the outcome;indeed, that is the hypothesis that small children make when questioned about this.

Then it would be a major discovery, once coins had been fabricated, that they tend to show both sides about equally often; and the equality appears to get better as the number of tosses increases. The equality of heads and tails would be seen as a fundamental law of physics; symmetric objects have a symmetric volition in falling (as, indeed, Cramer and Feller seem to have thought). Of course, physicists continued discovering new particles and calculation techniques – just as an astronomer can discover a new planet and a new algorithm to calculate its orbit, without any advance in his basic understanding of celestial mechanics.

With this beginning, we could develop the mathematical theory of object tossing, dis-covering the binomial distribution, the absence of time correlations, the limit theorems, the combinatorial frequency laws for tossing of several coins at once, the extension to more complicated symmetric objects like dice, etc. All the experimental confirmations of the theory would consist of more and more tossing experiments, measuring the frequencies in more and more elaborate scenarios. From such experiments, nothing would ever be found that called into question the existence of that volition of the object tossed; they only enable one to confirm that volition and measure it more and more accurately.

Then, suppose that someone was so foolish as to suggest that the motion of a tossed object is determined, not by its own volition, but by laws like those of Newtonian mechanics,governed by its initial position and velocity. He would be met with scorn and derision; for in all the existing experiments there is not the slightest evidence for any such influence. The Establishment would proclaim that, since all the observable facts are accounted for by the volition theory, it is philosophically naıve and a sign of professional incompetence to assume or search for anything deeper. In this respect, the elementary physics textbooks would read just like our present quantum theory textbooks.

Indeed, anyone trying to test the mechanical theory would have no success; however carefully he tossed the coin (not knowing what we know) it would persist in showing head and tails about equally often. To find any evidence for a causal instead of a statistical theory would require control over the initial conditions of launching, orders of magnitude more precise than anyone can achieve by hand tossing. We would continue almost indefinitely,satisfied with laws of physical probability and denying the existence of causes for individual tosses external to the object tossed – just as quantum theory does today – because those probability laws account correctly for everything that we can observe reproducibly with the technology we are using.

After thousands of years of triumph of the statistical theory, someone finally makes a machine which tosses coins in absolutely still air, with very precise control of the exact initial conditions. Magically, the coin starts giving unequal numbers of heads and tails; the frequency of heads is being controlled partially by the machine. With development of more and more precise machines, one finally reaches a degree of control where the outcome of the toss can be predicted with 100% accuracy. Belief in ‘physical probabilities’ expressing a volition of the coin is recognized finally as an unfounded superstition. The existence of an underlying mechanical theory is proved beyond question; and the long success of the previous statistical theory is seen as due only to the lack of control over the initial conditions of the tossing.

Because of recent spectacular advances in the technology of experimentation, with increasingly detailed control over the initial states of individual atoms (see, for example,Rempe, Walter and Klein, 1987), we think that the stage is going to be set, before very many more years have passed, for the same thing to happen in quantum theory; a century from now the true causes of microphenomena will be known to every schoolboy and, to paraphrase Seneca, they will be incredulous that such clear truths could have escaped usthroughout the 20th (and into the 21st) century"

http://www.med.mcgill.ca/epidemiology/hanley/bios601/Gaussia...

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#148
I think many comments here miss the point. I’ll try to summarise them and defend the article:

* “Chess results are not 50-50” - I don’t think the exact numbers are that important. What’s important is that in the 50-50 model or x-y model the Aliens assume these values to be just a consistent result of an RNG.

* “Chess is not random / the players are intelligent / the aliens could investigate who plays against who” - In the parable the Aliens don’t have direct access these variables, just like we might not have the access to some variables in QM experiments and we (and They) could mistake something hard to observe for random (i.e. if the rule is “if there’s an even number of atoms in a 1m radius, do A, if it’s odd, do B” the outcome would be 50-50 and would seem random even if it’s not)

* “Theories that are more complicated, predict less or make worse approximations are worth less than simple theories that predict more / better” (in other words Science is about models and approximations, not about truth or “Shut up and calculate”) - I think the author simply disagrees but he also shows why non-mainstream models are worth pursuing and developing - so that we are not stuck in a local maximum with a worse model than the one we could have.

Something else concerns me: I don’t know much about QM but if I understand correctly, Bell’s inequality tells us that there are no “hidden variables” and that QM is indeed random.

I’d be grateful for any references to articles on this topic that can be understood by non-experts.

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#149

I thought this was a quite insightful article - and was surprised to find so much criticism in the comments. e.g. those who are attacking his parable on the grounds that "actually the odds aren't actual 50-50 in chess" or "an alien would have to wonder why some people win more than others"... these objections seem like nit-picking to me and miss the opportunity to broaden our perspectives. The example is to help illu…

>> Maybe that chain of reasoning is only comprehensible to an artificial intelligence which we have yet to invent, involving us inhabiting some element of a vast fractal structure subject to some sort of anthropic principal?

And we will call this AI Deep Thought and it will finally provide answer to Life, the Universe and Everything ...

Sorry I could not resist myself.

But Your whole obsevation is spot on - so many people here is missing forest for the trees - arguing about pointless details. I would even dare to say that they are sitting in local minimum of all possible discussions that could be derrived from this article.

Re: Parable of Alien Chess

#150
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So instead of a coin toss it's a 12 sided dice where 4 sides are white wins, 3 sides are black wins, and 5 sides are draw. Changing the weights of your random number generator doesn't lead to a better understanding of how chess works.

That was one example of how the author proposes an extremely inadequate analogy. The fact that you can propose an improvement so easily demonstrates this. It's also very clearly a problem that it ignores player skill, time control and all sorts of other factors that would be basic to any kind of model claiming to have power in predicting chess outcomes.

> It's also very clearly a problem that it ignores player skill, time control and all sorts of other factors that would be basic to any kind of model claiming to have power in predicting chess outcomes.

This was exactly the point the author was trying to convey. The simplest model of chess with the fewest assumptions is that it is just a random number generator with no dependence on any factors, but this is a bad model, and the "fringe" alien who assumes there is some deeper, hidden structure to the game is correct to do so.

If it helps, consider the alien's sport of glorfball. We've never seen a game played, but we know that approximately 50% of the time the Aberdorfs win, and approximately 50% of the time the Gloophbahorps win. Based on this data, is it reasonable to conclude that glorfball is nothing but a game of chance?

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