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America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

nytimes.com

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Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#181

Post by nikanj »

Kranar wrote: post #88
nicoburns wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the UK it's a lot more uneven than that. House prices have increased far far above inflation over the 20th century (not entirely evenly). So those who invested in property at low prices are now sitting on large nest eggs, while young people are unable to make similar investments as they are already priced out of the market.

Sure but that's because a house in London is a fundamentally different asset today than it was say 30-40 years ago. I live in Toronto and people in my generation complain about housing prices here as well, that their parents bought a house for super cheap back in the 70s and 80s and now they have no chance to afford anything. What's not discussed is that these cities were much smaller back then, had far fewer service…

Asking without irony: What place in Canada today would be equal to Toronto in the 1990s?

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#182

Post by benhurmarcel »

legitster wrote: post #83

So few of these conversations actually discuss the reasons American manufacturing is so uncompetitive and assume it's entirely legislative/outside factors. As I been told, cost is rarely the primary factor - Chinese manufacturing is insanely flexible. You can set up a plant with almost no capital, be able to retool at a moment's notice to a customer's whim, and add and drop employees to production at the drop of a ha…

All your points are down to lowering cost by exploiting workers more.

Lower capital needed due to low salaries, no employee protection, no building or environmental regulation, no employee contracts, no training… Is that really what you want for your country? I imagine you don't see yourself working one of those unprotected low-paying jobs however.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#183

Post by roland_nilsson »

m463 wrote: post #120
roland_nilsson wrote: post #117

Well I'm no economist, but this seems inevitable if (1) consumers want cheap products and (2) production is cheaper elsewhere. Given those conditions, any company that wants to survive will have to move production abroad (and those that do not will quickly be replaced). So if we want to keep domestic production, either consumers need to voluntarily choose more expensive alternatives -- which seems unlikely to happen…

Computer controlled manufacturing, robotics, and other forms of automation, like Elon Musk's gigafactories. I don't know the reality of the gigafactories though: - how many "corner cases" are handled by humans - would it (un)scale for things with smaller production numbers?

Increasing automation to push prices might keep the factories within the country, but it won't save manufacturing jobs.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#184

Post by ReaganFJones »

benhurmarcel wrote: post #182
legitster wrote: post #83

So few of these conversations actually discuss the reasons American manufacturing is so uncompetitive and assume it's entirely legislative/outside factors. As I been told, cost is rarely the primary factor - Chinese manufacturing is insanely flexible. You can set up a plant with almost no capital, be able to retool at a moment's notice to a customer's whim, and add and drop employees to production at the drop of a ha…

All your points are down to lowering cost by exploiting workers more. Lower capital needed due to low salaries, no employee protection, no building or environmental regulation, no employee contracts, no training… Is that really what you want for your country? I imagine you don't see yourself working one of those unprotected low-paying jobs however.

If I was part of a developing nation then, yes, I would absolutely want those jobs. They tend to be the best jobs in the region and one of the key ways to advance your social class. There's a pretty strong amount of research backing up this position: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9669

It's one of the main reasons we've seen such a sharp reduction in poverty at basically every single monetary value you could measure it at https://imgur.com/a/qIB24jP.

What you appear to be characterizing as strictly bad worker exploitation is a key part of the best known way to reduce global poverty.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#185

Post by kernel-dump »

jjk166 wrote: post #134

Most stories like these completely misunderstand the issues with american manufacturing. It's easy to see lower American manufacturing employment and increasing Chinese manufacturing and conclude that American jobs are simply moving to china, but this narrative doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny. Take for example steel production. American employment in the industry has fallen by 55% since 1989, while chinese producti…

“Take for example steel production. American employment in the industry has fallen by 55% since 1989, while chinese production is now 5 times higher.

...

Looking at the situation more granularly, we see that US steel production has been approximately constant since the early 80s, whereas Chinese steel production didn't ramp up till the 00s, around the same time that the decrease in US steel employment leveled off.”

Do you know of any data sources for this? I’d like to look at other industries as well.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#186

Post by l3v3ll »

ryandrake wrote: post #178
l3v3ll wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha! I was going to edit my post with exactly that, that is correct. 500K/year is probably top 2%?

The elite are not the ones making a tech salary and spending 1/4 of it on their rent. The elite are the few who are writing those tech salary paychecks.

Agreed. The difference between the top .01% and top 2% is many magnitudes larger than the difference between those 2% and the other 98%. (Sorry no source.). But both seem to contribute to the increasing inequality.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#187

Post by l3v3ll »

ryandrake wrote: post #179
l3v3ll wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quit down playing the inequality. Let me make the math easier. Of 10 people, one owns 86% of the stock. The other 9 fight for the other 14%. You are trying to justify that and it’s unfortunate. Also, the few billionaires are still very much a problem. However, the top 10% still displays a large inequality, quite the opposite of “doing very well”. And, I’m glad there are 10%’ers who are pro-equality, they aren’t compl…

More like one owns 86% of the stock, 4.5 own no stock at all, and the remaining 4.5 fight it out. 45% of Americans do not own a shred of stock at all, including indirectly through mutual funds or retirement accounts [1]. 1: https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-own...

True, it’s hard to relate to the people defending the status quo in these comments. I think I am usually pretty good at understanding the other side of the argument, but tough for me here.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#188

Post by legitster »

benhurmarcel wrote: post #182
legitster wrote: post #83

So few of these conversations actually discuss the reasons American manufacturing is so uncompetitive and assume it's entirely legislative/outside factors. As I been told, cost is rarely the primary factor - Chinese manufacturing is insanely flexible. You can set up a plant with almost no capital, be able to retool at a moment's notice to a customer's whim, and add and drop employees to production at the drop of a ha…

All your points are down to lowering cost by exploiting workers more. Lower capital needed due to low salaries, no employee protection, no building or environmental regulation, no employee contracts, no training… Is that really what you want for your country? I imagine you don't see yourself working one of those unprotected low-paying jobs however.

I think my argument is that putting the onus for welfare on employers is clearly counter-intuitive.

I already spent a fair share of my working life in unprotected, low-paying jobs. And they wouldn't have been nearly so bad if I didn't have to worry about things like healthcare or outrageous housing costs.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#189

Post by esoterica »

ryandrake wrote: post #178
l3v3ll wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha! I was going to edit my post with exactly that, that is correct. 500K/year is probably top 2%?

The elite are not the ones making a tech salary and spending 1/4 of it on their rent. The elite are the few who are writing those tech salary paychecks.

I bet the people making $7.25 an hour would consider the $500k/year FAANG crowd pretty elite. Also if you own enough tech stock then you are also kind of writing the paychecks.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#190

Post by esoterica »

slv77 wrote: post #164
esoterica wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the obsession with manufacturing jobs? Unemployment was still low (at least pre-covid) and total compensation, while not growing as fast as some people would like, is still higher than ever.

Manufacturing requires the ability to marshal human, technological and financial resources at scale. The US policy for the last 50 years has been to invest heavily in the technological and financial capabilities of the equation and outsource the human capability to other countries. COVID-19 has made it apparent that there are significant advantages to having the operational capabilities to organize human resources at…

That has to do with state capacity, which is terrible in the present day United States, not manufacturing ability. Having a lot of factories on-shore is not going to magically make the government competent.
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