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Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

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Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#41

Post by toomuchtodo »

whalesalad wrote: post #30
kbar13 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i dont think anyone is arguing that grocery stores should run their own delivery service. the problem is that these delivery drivers / gig workers should be getting benefits and fair wages for essentially working full time jobs.

No they shouldn’t. That will perpetuate the issue. Healthcare needs to move in the direction of being provided by the state or at least needs to be decoupled from your profession and affordable. The status quo is what needs to change. Gig economy work is going to take over. People need to insure and protect themselves. And it needs to be possible.

If the government can get universal healthcare done, it can enforce better labor policies around gig work, even if it makes it unprofitable or substantially destroys demand for it.

The gig economy is only going to take over if people keep voting for it. Lots of states and a federal government left to take up the issue.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#42

Post by Ericson2314 »

whalesalad wrote: post #30
kbar13 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i dont think anyone is arguing that grocery stores should run their own delivery service. the problem is that these delivery drivers / gig workers should be getting benefits and fair wages for essentially working full time jobs.

No they shouldn’t. That will perpetuate the issue. Healthcare needs to move in the direction of being provided by the state or at least needs to be decoupled from your profession and affordable. The status quo is what needs to change. Gig economy work is going to take over. People need to insure and protect themselves. And it needs to be possible.

I agree, but there is great risk in letting the norms of what is a "decent and fair" standard of living degrade until the universal basic income and healthcare arrive.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#43

Post by whalesalad »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #41
whalesalad wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they shouldn’t. That will perpetuate the issue. Healthcare needs to move in the direction of being provided by the state or at least needs to be decoupled from your profession and affordable. The status quo is what needs to change. Gig economy work is going to take over. People need to insure and protect themselves. And it needs to be possible.

If the government can get universal healthcare done, it can enforce better labor policies around gig work, even if it makes it unprofitable or substantially destroys demand for it. The gig economy is only going to take over if people keep voting for it. Lots of states and a federal government left to take up the issue.

People are voting for it by doing it. The work is absolutely exploding. Shipt cannot hire fast enough. They are handing out thousand dollar bonuses left and right. And I am in Metro Detroit, not a big area by any means.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#44

Post by toomuchtodo »

whalesalad wrote: post #43
toomuchtodo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government can get universal healthcare done, it can enforce better labor policies around gig work, even if it makes it unprofitable or substantially destroys demand for it. The gig economy is only going to take over if people keep voting for it. Lots of states and a federal government left to take up the issue.

People are voting for it by doing it. The work is absolutely exploding. Shipt cannot hire fast enough. They are handing out thousand dollar bonuses left and right. And I am in Metro Detroit, not a big area by any means.

By voting for it, I mean codifying into law labor policies that strongly disadvantage workers (Prop 22).

We’re supposedly a first world country; we should act like it with regards to labor regulation.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#45

Post by mc32 »

slg wrote: post #40
mc32 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's suppose AB 5 provided cloudy outlook... before AB 5 that was not the case. There was no such law... did they somehow secretly know what was happening 5 years down the road and said, uhh, let's wait this out. No, they could have done this before AB 5. They did not. This seems to say that this move would have happened if conditions allowed it and the situation was right for business. What that means is sure AB 5…

The rideshare industry likely couldn't have supported this 5 years ago and it was clear that something like AB5 was going to happen for years. Prop 22 provides unprecedented clarity on how ridesharing will be legislated in California for the foreseeable future.

Let's suppose you're right, Uber and Lyft and DD all knew this and despite this knowledge thought, you know what, yeah it's uncertain but let's set CA as our HQ and concentrate our efforts there anyway...

Vons and Pavilions are not the same as Uber, Lyft, etc. I think they did it because they thought it was time to change their delivery logistics and were not waiting for concretization of the law around this.

Put another way, Vons' business model isn't centered around this law. It's incidental.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#46

Post by redis_mlc »

Anon1096 wrote: post #25
slg wrote: post #4

For those who maybe clicked through to the comments before reading or didn't make it several paragraphs into the article, this is a direct result of Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign by Uber, Lyft, and other rideshare companies. This is one of the exact results predicted by opponents of Prop 22. Also there is basically no way for Prop 22 to be amended or repealed through the state legis…

>Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign You mean, passed on the backs of nearly 10 million voters . I always find it strange to tout the line of how much money was spent in an election, as if to say that the voters have no agency or culpability. Clinton spent nearly 2 times what Trump did and still lost. Money does not equal votes if the people don't support an issue.

> Clinton spent nearly 2 times what Trump did and still lost.

That election is a bad example since:

- Trump was already a TV and Twitter celebrity brand.

- Hillary Clinton was an unlikeable candidate who was ill, financially corrupt (received large Saudi contributions to her foundation) and avoided reporters for 2 months during the campaign (similar to Biden in 2020)

I've seen estimates that Trump added $2 billion in value to Twitter, so Trump also got some advantage out of that relationship.

What's interesting is that SV ad companies denied knowing that Trump was underspending until their end of quarter, then blamed their poor results on that saying, "Who knew?"

In fact, anybody who read a newspaper knew, so it was odd hearing that nonsense from people paid millions to know that.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#47

Post by amluto »

ndespres wrote: post #12
mullingitover wrote: post #8

This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system because they're too easily manipulated. Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Had Prod…

>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?

Perhaps we could decouple benefits from employment so that 8 hours of gig work per day would actually add up to roughly the same thing as 8 hours per day of employment.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#48

Post by cjohnson318 »

julienb_sea wrote: post #21
ndespres wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?

No one is denying that independent contractors deserve dignity and stability. Imposing a forced employment framework violates the dignity of non-full time contractors who want a side income to supplement their normal job. This discussion also should account for the benefit to society of having safe and low cost transportation and delivery options, which raises the dignity of many people who otherwise could not afford…

Minimum wage is not based on a fair market, within reasonable bounds. I remember when minimum wage went from $5.15 to $6.25 in Louisiana in 2008, it's now $7.25 in Louisiana. You could get a lot more in 2000 for $5.15, than you can in 2020 for $7.25, and Louisiana is one of the cheapest places in the US to live.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#49

Post by ndespres »

kogir wrote: post #18

I don’t see how this is a bad thing? Albertson’s, a national grocery chain, goes all in with a single vendor (instacart) of an ancillary service (delivery) for efficiency. It’s frustrating to see this portrayed as some local chain responding to local laws when it’s just natural streamlining after a business sale.

It's a "bad thing" because there are benefits to being employed with a company that treats you like an employee, which you are not going to get when you're fired and told to go work for Instacart as a contractor if you want to keep getting paid. This is a bad thing for the employee who no longer has their job.

Re: Vons, Pavilions to Replace Drivers with Independent Contractors

#50

Post by mayneack »

mc32 wrote: post #14
slg wrote: post #4

For those who maybe clicked through to the comments before reading or didn't make it several paragraphs into the article, this is a direct result of Prop 22 which was passed on the backs of a nearly $200m campaign by Uber, Lyft, and other rideshare companies. This is one of the exact results predicted by opponents of Prop 22. Also there is basically no way for Prop 22 to be amended or repealed through the state legis…

Wait... how come before AB 5, companies didn't do this, why wait till AB 5 was passed then repealed by Prop 22 before doing this (are they clairvoyant)? In other words, had AB 5 not passed, this would likely have happened anyway as a progression towards off-loading "non-core" competencies to third parties as has continued to happen across industries (an iconic example is janitorial services which used to be handled i…

Grocery delivery has grown by a massive amount since AB 5 was passed.
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