Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#161

Post by rusk » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 12:09 AM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #136

rusk wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get a bad dose and you can’t get a respirator you’re in big trouble. Guess what happens when there are so many sick that respirators run out. What happens when hospitals are overrun with patients with ‘mild’ symptoms? We’ve been talking about this for nine months and you’re still at the marginal deaths stage of reasoning. Do you need a picture drawn for you or something?

Brilliant logic there. And if I cross the street, I might get hit by a bus. Let's ban cars. You seem to be struggling that this is a hugely complex situation that might call for slightly more sophisticated logic than you're apparently capable of. > What happens when hospitals are overrun with patients with ‘mild’ symptoms? Um wow tough one. Maybe prioritize severe cases like we have been doing for the past 9 months w…

It’s the economy, stupid. All you guys trying to find excuses to keep on going as normal because “the economy” are engaged in myopic, short-termist thinking. If the health service is smashed and nobody can do anything because the rate of infection is out of control then that ultimately destroys the economy. You have to see the big picture. How long will it be and how much evidence do we have to see before you will just pipe down and get with the program. This is all about the economy, for everybody, not just those of us who can work at home cosily ensconced in our comfortable homes.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#162

Post by jeofken » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

ubercow13 wrote: post #160

jeofken wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. No man has the right to violently hinder free people from living free. My body is my property and not the property of the state.

Any state on the planet will violently hinder their people from doing certain things, that one of the jobs of most police forces. Often it's to protect the rights of other 'free people' in the population.

Like my body is my property are the bodies of others also property of theirs, and I have no right to violate their property right. It is instead right to proportionally defend rightfully owned property.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#163

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 12:35 AM UTC

JohnCohorn wrote: post #121

djsumdog wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That masks are scientifically shown to do anything. They are more superstition at this point. You can look at numbers between regions with high mask usage and low mask usage and there's literally no correlation. Meanwhile they are contributing massive amounts of plastic waste, textile waste, and provide a placebo while also providing alienation between individuals. The larger factor that correlates is population dens…

There’s debate on how much masks reduce spread, and obviously a lot of variation in effectiveness given wildly different materials and design for masks that are not designed to be protective. But I’ve never heard of any serious scientific debate about their helping to some reasonable degree. With possibly high benefits and very low cost(in dollars and in freedom as compared to other measures) wearing masks while indo…

> and very low cost

The costs are high. Estimates show millions, if not over a billion, of these things will make their way into oceans. That's massive environmental damage:

https://nypost.com/2020/12/28/more-than-1-5b-masks-will-poll...

They have a high social cost. They are causing fear and adding stigma. People are judging one another for mask usage out of pure religion reasoning. If they are not very effective, we've watched State mandates around the world cause a new ideological divide between people. pro-Mask people literally have voiced threats of violence against those who do not see their benefit.

They hide our facial expressions and our primary way of seeing each other. Long before COVID, medical masks were used at Gitmo as one of the many means of dehumanization and torture:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=masks+gitmo&iar=images&iax=images&...

Human rights groups have long been critical of the full Burqa as a way to dehumanize women. There is a psychological effect of not being able to see people's faces, and therefor not seeing them as human.

There are people who have PTSD from trauma, rape or sexual abuse who can not wear a mask without panic attacks. I know such people who cannot go into stores or restaurants and must order everything online. There are exceptions in the law, but most stores will not allow of it and the shame of walking around in a store without a mask where 99% of people do also induces panic.

Masks have a cost. It is not low. It is not near zero. It is much higher than you think it is.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#164

Post by c0nducktr » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 12:35 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #141

f6v wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual’s comfort can’t be a number one priority in a times of crisis. Sitting at home in a digital age when video calling anyone in the world is absolutely free, it’s the least you can do. Also all the entertainment which is available nowadays. How hard can it be to make this sacrifice so that someone’s grandma doesn’t die? > isolation is counter-intuitive to humans 20 million cities are counterintuitive, and so…

Tell that to my best friend in the UK who's Italian flatmate committed suicide back in March.

I truly am not trying to be insensitive, but didn't these restrictions only just barely begin back in March? It's difficult for me to see the causation.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#165

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:26 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #73

JohnCohorn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike sports, but I do see that making pro sports broadcasts continue could provide the entertainment needed for folks to be happier to stay inside their homes like they should.

Why not let everyone else sports to stay healthy and strengthen their immune systems, as well as get outside (where it's warm enough) and get the vitamin D they need? Why should people who get paid a million get special treatment over those who are barely making it an unemployed? Being able to shoot some hoops seems more valuable for the 20 year old's mental health than watching some rich top-of-their class play in a…

Because everyone doing sports kind of defeats the purpose of social distancing.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#166

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:32 AM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #134

Daishiman wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 13% higher in England, which yes, I would characterize as vast.

I'm not sure you understand how excess mortality works. Excess mortality right now during the winter period is higher...it always is. And 13% is not panic numbers. Would you be surprised to learn that the 17/18 flu season resulted in more excess deaths than we are having right now? Surely you must have been freaking out then as well advocating for national lockdowns...right?

No, it was 13% higher overall in England during 2020 compared to the 5-year average.

Your comparison with the '17 flu season is, honestly, stupid, and demonstrates your lack of reasoning on this. C'mon: there _wasn't_ a lockdown, and here despite a tremendous lockdown and a long way to go before herd immunity the situation is dire.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#167

Post by Daishiman » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:34 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #163

JohnCohorn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s debate on how much masks reduce spread, and obviously a lot of variation in effectiveness given wildly different materials and design for masks that are not designed to be protective. But I’ve never heard of any serious scientific debate about their helping to some reasonable degree. With possibly high benefits and very low cost(in dollars and in freedom as compared to other measures) wearing masks while indo…

> and very low cost The costs are high. Estimates show millions, if not over a billion, of these things will make their way into oceans. That's massive environmental damage: https://nypost.com/2020/12/28/more-than-1-5b-masks-will-poll... They have a high social cost. They are causing fear and adding stigma. People are judging one another for mask usage out of pure religion reasoning. If they are not very effective, w…

This is the stupidest comment I have read in this thread.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#168

Post by gnusty_gnurc » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 1:55 AM UTC

qubitcoder wrote: post #159

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Harmful to society" is a poor standard used to justify a lot of evil stuff. That standard once included homosexuality. It was the basis for eugenics. Also like I mentioned before - Prohibition. It's a standard that's ultimately subjective and self-deceiving. You're arguing that we should outlaw something that's vital to human life. Social interaction. Violence, on the other hand, is clearly not necessary or virtuous…

Have you considered that these measures are _temporary_? If people shared the same ideas about sacrifice, the United States would've never prevailed in WWII. Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, are more rooted in ego and entitlement. And that is often coupled with spurious ideas about government overreach (which, while sometimes valid, isn't exactly a cogent argu…

> Have you considered that these measures are _temporary_?

I will never consider this given the excesses and absolute indefensible failures of the emergency powers introduced in service of the Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/etc. wars. Nothing has been rolled back.

Emergency powers should never be treated as temporary given history.

> Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, are more rooted in ego and entitlement

This is a diversion to minimize that the "preventive measures" have continuously failed and been extended. "2 weeks to stop the spread" have turned into multiple years. Practically every "enlightened" & "advanced" system of Europe that the US is compared to has failed. The most drastic measures in South America, likewise have failed. We are told to act like countries on the other side of the globe - it's laughably unrealistic and divorced from reality.

Say "it's just temporary" to someone months behind on rent and unemployed. It's shockingly insensitive and paternalistic. Honestly, it's despotic given the protracted, dire circumstances of anyone that's not stably employed.

I don't even oppose mask usage. If masks solved the issue (which clearly they don't), I'd be happy.

> Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, are more rooted in ego and entitlement.

Entitlement? Entitlement is how to describe every comfy white collar worker that rolls out of bed and hops on Zoom, and then condescendingly and abusively berates everyone else that does not have that privilege.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#169

Post by jasonlaramburu » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #153

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're shaming people for feeling natural human instincts There are many 'natural' human instincts that are harmful to society and are either strongly discouraged or outlawed (violence, drug abuse, overeating to name a few).

"Harmful to society" is a poor standard used to justify a lot of evil stuff. That standard once included homosexuality. It was the basis for eugenics. Also like I mentioned before - Prohibition. It's a standard that's ultimately subjective and self-deceiving. You're arguing that we should outlaw something that's vital to human life. Social interaction. Violence, on the other hand, is clearly not necessary or virtuous…

> You're arguing that we should outlaw something that's vital to human life. Social interaction.

You’re being a bit dramatic about this. People can still use zoom, have socially-distanced meetups on their lawn etc. That’s a big difference from isolation.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#170

Post by gnusty_gnurc » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #169

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Harmful to society" is a poor standard used to justify a lot of evil stuff. That standard once included homosexuality. It was the basis for eugenics. Also like I mentioned before - Prohibition. It's a standard that's ultimately subjective and self-deceiving. You're arguing that we should outlaw something that's vital to human life. Social interaction. Violence, on the other hand, is clearly not necessary or virtuous…

> You're arguing that we should outlaw something that's vital to human life. Social interaction. You’re being a bit dramatic about this. People can still use zoom, have socially-distanced meetups on their lawn etc. That’s a big difference from isolation.

> You’re being a bit dramatic about this.

This is how an abuser talks. "Why do you care so much?"

Say that to the working class person whose livelihood depends on the continuity of public life.

The person months behind on rent and jobless.

Anyone contemplating suicide.

Millions of children deprived of close to a year and counting of in-person education at a crucial point of their development that will never come back.

People horrified to enter a hospital despite needing medical care.