A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#761

Post by dang » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

This comment is a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25630456 but I've lifted it to the top level in a feeble effort to reduce the steam coming out of our server.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#762

Post by StreamBright » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> they're simply trying to curb abuse

I thought this is why we have laws. What aspect of the industry is abusive that you are referring to?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#763

Post by gedy » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #727

lliamander wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least an idea of what they are trying to bargain for would be nice.

They have a website with a platform and priorities at https://alphabetworkersunion.org/power/why/ "We want to wield our power to ensure: * Our working conditions are inclusive and fair, * Perpetrators of harassment, abuse, discrimination, and retaliation are held accountable, * We have the freedom to decline to work on projects that don’t align with our values, * All workers, regardless of employment status, can enjo…

While not totally unreasonable, this does sound more politically motivated than many traditional unions.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#764

Post by ahepp » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Boeing has software engineer unions. They start at like, ~$70k and after a few years can get up to ~$90k (someone correct me if I'm off, but I don't think I'm very far off).

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#765

Post by throwaway894345 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #745

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> This is because those unions are serving a very different purpose to the stereotypical union some engineers seem to fear. [...] I think there's another purpose of the film industry unions that doesn't get mentioned much in these (tech industry) discussions. Specifically, that the film unions raise wages by limiting the number of people who enter the industry. It's simple supply and demand. This works via the follow…

> I don't know whether something like that would work in the software industry, but it seems at least plausible to me that it could benefit everyone who is currently employed in tech (at the expense of future potential tech employees).

I doubt it, if only because actors are hired in large part due to their celebrity. There are no celebrity SREs (at best they have some cache in the software/SRE community, but not in the general public).

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#766

Post by akie » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

dannykwells wrote: post #715

dcre wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not trying to form a traditional majority union. > unlike a traditional union, which demands that an employer come to the bargaining table to agree on a contract, the Alphabet Workers Union is a so-called minority union that represents a fraction of the company’s more than 260,000 full-time employees and contractors. Workers said it was primarily an effort to give structure and longevity to activism at Googl…

This is a very important comment, not sure why it's not higher. This isn't really a union in the traditional sense - it's just a group of hyper liberal Google activist employees who are banding together to try to get institutional change.

"hyper liberal" you say ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In societies that are not America, unions are traditionally left of center but most definitely still more or less in the center.

It seems that political discussions relating to the US don't have the appropriate vocabulary to discuss political opinions that are positioned to the left of the corporate wing of the Democratic party.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#767

Post by rlewkov » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

thesuitonym wrote: post #749

pwned1 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck.

You would have a part in shaping the contract, though. And if you don't like it, yeah, leave the union, you're no worse off than you were before.

You may or may not be better off. How will people that are/aren't part of a union be treated if some people are members? If majority is union and you are not, will you be shunned, denied same opportunities for promotion, etc? We can only guess.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#768

Post by jjcon » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

ahepp wrote: post #764

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Boeing has software engineer unions. They start at like, ~$70k and after a few years can get up to ~$90k (someone correct me if I'm off, but I don't think I'm very far off).

So like half what Google pays? How much does their Union take?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#769

Post by throwaway894345 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

labcomputer wrote: post #747

ahepp wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By what mechanism will salaries fall? And thus by what mechanism will SWE unions keep salaries high, but gates open?

Salaries would fall due to increased supply. A union would keep salaries high by not keeping the gates open (if it were modeled on the film industry unions).

Additionally, the low hanging fruit for automation is going to diminish. We'll always have things to automate, but in general those things will decrease in value.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#770

Post by toast0 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

thesuitonym wrote: post #538

finnthehuman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

>tell me what the terms of the contract will be and I'll decide for myself. Nobody can tell you what the contract will be because the contract won't be drawn up until the union exists and has enough members to bargain. What you DO know is the current contract you have. You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. You DO know that a…

Some employers have a little flexibility in their contract (I got one of the probably not enforcable in California claims of ownership of work outside the office redlined on a support position).

If you're joining an employer with a negotiated contract, there's really no chance to change it when you're hired; it's accept it or leave. You generally aren't part of the bargaining if you're not a current employee.

Maybe the contract is better, but we'd have to see some to know. Maybe I don't want what the union wants and while I have a vote, it doesn't have significance unless my opinions are shared by others.