A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#711

Post by around_here » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:10 PM UTC

One of the most common things I see among tech workers is that they think companies are “anti-union”, which is a total lie. They love unions, just not when workers make them. They call them “associations”, “councils”, “chambers of commerce”, etc. They serve on each other’s boards, they form cabals to limit employee pay, and they lobby the government to make it easier to get rid of you whenever they please.

Corporations and the rich love socialism. They need it. It’s socialism for them, brutal capitalism and rugged individualism for everyone else. The fools of tech listen to their words and ignore their actions.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#712

Post by bubbleRefuge » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #214

prepend wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Leaving changes nothing Leaving improves conditions for the worker and that’s the biggest thing for me, the worker.

The biggest thing for me, also the worker, is being able to negotiate against abuse in an industry that Eg. Uses h1b to abuse employees on the regular. These employees cant leave.

I'd say thats one big advantage to unionization and the political leverage that it can bring. Not sure it helps in California where you have a blue state. Getting rid of the cheap exploitative labor that H1's bring in and restoring the H1's original design which was to bring in the best and the brightest or the most skilled.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#713

Post by lokar » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:11 PM UTC

pwned1 wrote: post #595

cactus2093 wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a bit of an implementation detail question I have wondered about unionizing in tech, within software engineering specifically - how would a union work in a field where the lines between managers and employees are so blurred? Most companies have a parallel IC track where the most senior ICs are paid more and are more senior at the company than many managers. And there are tech leads/team leads that have no repo…

That will all be addressed in the take-it-or-leave-it 2,400 page proposed contract.

I don't think they are in fact seeking a contract.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#714

Post by sidibe » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

I think on the whole Google leadership is pretty representative of what Google employees want and the ones who want this union will be disappointed with what the union wants if they get enough people on board.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#715

Post by dannykwells » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

dcre wrote: post #657

rdgthree wrote: post #94

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

They are not trying to form a traditional majority union. > unlike a traditional union, which demands that an employer come to the bargaining table to agree on a contract, the Alphabet Workers Union is a so-called minority union that represents a fraction of the company’s more than 260,000 full-time employees and contractors. Workers said it was primarily an effort to give structure and longevity to activism at Googl…

This is a very important comment, not sure why it's not higher. This isn't really a union in the traditional sense - it's just a group of hyper liberal Google activist employees who are banding together to try to get institutional change.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#716

Post by 8note » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #110

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

Getting a job somewhere doesn't mean being able to negotiate for the things you want.

Eg. Google workers don't like the facial recognition or censoring search results in China.

Getting a new job isn't going to change that, nor is closing down orgs going to be part of your job offer negotiation

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#717

Post by Merman_Mike » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

halflings wrote: post #697

On this group's homepage [1]: "We are BIPOC workers who fight against totalitarianism." I am not sure what this has to do with unionizing Google workers. Using obscure acronyms to arbitrarily focus on race and ethnicity (something frowned upon here in Europe at least) + the hyperbole of "fighting totalitarianism" doesn't give me great confidence that this is representing workers, as much as it is pushing the ideology…

Sounds more like a political party than a labor union.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#718

Post by yibg » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

I object to unions because of past experiences in and interacting with unions. For me the 2 major problems with unions are:

1) there is an us vs them mentality. You are in or you are out. If you are out, it’s harder to get in. This also leads to dead weight staying around and people doing the bare minimum. This might be good for those already in the union, but terrible for anyone not.

2) a lot of politics / corruption / nepotism. Hired are made based on relationships, promotions are either tenure based or based on relationships.

Not saying these things don’t happen at non unions places, but from what I’ve seen they happen a lot more at unions. Some times the stereotypes are based in reality.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#719

Post by scarmig » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #629

my_username_is_ wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain why a small union may or may not want to affiliate with a larger union organization? Did Google workers have other options here?

The details of the initial organization aren't public, but it's likely that it went in the other direction, as part of the pre-existing project CODE-CWA trying to convince software developers to unionize with them. There's no reason I can see that they would have had to join the CWA. The advantage of affiliating with a larger organization is their weight becomes a part of your collective bargaining strength. That is,…

Disadvantages from a union perspective:

1) a substantial part of your dues are passed on to support the larger organization

2) some member services are delegated to the larger union, and some larger unions are better at member services than others

3) some larger unions spend a lot of money on political activism instead of member services

4) less independence of action, as larger unions might have different priorities than what ground level members want (e.g. wanting to get a contract settled instead of fighting for more; external organizing over internal organizing)

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#720

Post by intended » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #611

onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

Or conversely - if intelligent people with experience from around the world in the best scenario possible feel that right now a union is needed - then that is a shot in the arm for all those others people in far worse situations who can't hope to start a union because they would be busted faster than I can write this full stop.