Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

661–670 of 1001 posts

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#661

Post by cultus »

rzz3 wrote: post #280
Spooky23 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some reason, the most vocal aspect of tech workers tends to be this libertarianish pure merit based persona that is insulted by any type of collective bargaining. I think that attitude rules the day because tech related industries are in an extended growth period, and the more “legacy” aspects of the industry use offshoring and guest workers to maintain total control. (The armies of programmers churning out Java…

I personally am very happy with my job, and when I raise any kind of grievance it is listened to. If I were unhappy, I’d go to another company. So I just don’t see what I’d get out of it personally.

It's neat that you are in such a position, but many aren't.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#662

Post by lumost »

kortilla wrote: post #611
onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

Why decry the Software Engineer preserving a toe hold in the upper class income bracket vs. the leadership team making 10-100000x that amount? ( The 100k multiplier is the real maximal difference between what a Senior Engineer at FAANG makes and the owners of FAANG in a good year )

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#663

Post by Sodman »

commandlinefan wrote: post #633
da_big_ghey wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. I am such a person. For most workers, you're right that a union will probably increase wages. But for me, it will do the opposite. In most jobs I have worked, I ended up paid significantly more than counterparts in the same job. I usually was better at my job and put in…

> put in more hours I'm skeptical of unionization in tech, but the one thing I can imagine unions would fix is the constant unpaid overtime that's associate with tech jobs. In a union situation, you'd be paid more if you were working more hours period, rather than hoping somebody would notice and give you a pay raise at some indeterminate time in the future.

It's not a huge stretch to imagine the following scenario play out though:

1. Tech workers unionize, negotiate with employer that any work > 40 hours / week get paid overtime.

2. The company now has two choices: A) Pay their employees more than their competitors for the same work. Or B) Don't authorize any overtime.

3. In scenario A, they're either running at (much) higher cost than their competitors, and thus a disadvantage. In Scenario B, they're either slower to ship products, or there's a bunch of "off the books" work done by engineers trying to ship things anyways (which is basically the status quo today, except now it would cost you 1% of your salary).

I could see the first scenario potentially attracting better talent for the significantly higher pay in the short term. But it's also a perverse incentive structure where if my 8 hours of work suddenly takes 9 hours, I get paid more, so why would I finish it early? Oh and because I'm in a union, it's now much harder to get rid of me, even if I'm half-assing it.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#665

Post by will4274 »

maxehmookau wrote: post #250
ur-whale wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Trade unions are ... a force for good. As witnessed by how much Europe innovates in tech. lol.

I could provide a list of European tech innovations over the last decade, but I sense you're not looking to engage in good faith.

Sure, I'd be interested in your list of European tech companies that have innovated a comparable amount to Google. Whatcha got?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#666

Post by dnissley »

capableweb wrote: post #407
Mauricebranagh wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they should stick to actual "Trade union union issues" to start with - and remember that large number of Google employees would be ok working on defence and probably voted republican. Selling tech to oppressive nation states who are not the USA's friends is a separate issue

> large number of Google employees would be ok working on defence > probably voted republican I'm not saying you're wrong, but do you have any surveys or data points to support those two points? Seems you and a few others here on HN would do good by reading up on trade unions look around the world. As far as I'm reading their values, all of them are within "Trade union issues" and doesn't consider having a country-wi…

Santa Clara County (where Google's headquarters are) election results:

Biden: 72.64% (617k votes) Trump: 25.23% (214k votes)

Source: https://results.enr.clarityelections.com/CA/Santa_Clara/1060...

Caveats galore of course: Not every Santa Clara resident works at Google, not every worker at that office lives in Santa Clara county, Google has many other offices in other areas, voting for Trump doesn't mean someone is republican, etc. etc.

But, it would be pretty surprising to me if there wasn't a sizable minority -- say at least 10% -- of workers at Google that voted republican/trump.

Here's another data point, re: donations to political parties by Google employees, with probably an even longer list of caveats than the above analysis:

Democrats: $5,437,048 (88%) Republicans: $766,920 (12%)

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/02/most-liberal-tech-companies-...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#667

Post by subsubzero »

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve

Agree, things that a union can address:

- Pay transparency, Have detailed info about pay bands, and ensure some new hire from a hot company doing the same job as you is not making 2-3x your salary.

- Broken promotion process, at my company promotion is completely broken with really talented engineers leaving all the time as they are not getting promoted(alot of politics at play etc), a union can ensure promotions are granted in an even process.

- Age discrimination, This one will affect everyone as we all will get older. Alot of companies abuse this one under the guise of "culture fit". A union will ensure that talented older engineers are not discriminated against either while working and being fired for being too old or at the interview process under culture fit nonsense.

- Interviews, I think most people can agree that tech interviews are pretty broken. They are designed to be extremely hard to encourage people to stay in their position and it usually takes months of practice to be able to pass one. Unions could fix this broken process.

- Working with bad actors, When google started work on a secret search engine with the chinese govt. googlers were outraged, a union could ensure its members do not work in any way with a govt that does not support common human rights.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#668

Post by ineedasername »

JediWing wrote: post #652
ineedasername wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The schools are sanitized nightly and those who go in literally don't have to see anyone else, and by policy are not supposed to. "Unified front" That is not the purpose of the union. The union exists to serve it's members. If serving it's members might be slightly more difficult if it actually accommodates the choices of the members it serves, well that's it's job. It's job is not to make it's job easier, it's to se…

Is the union preventing teachers from going into the school? Is it not OK for the union to have a position on the matter and communicate it to their members? Why is it ok for the administration to say "we prefer but don't require you to come in" but not ok for the union to say "actually, we prefer but don't require you to stay home"? A unified front is EXACTLY the purpose of a union. The threat of collective action b…

I don't understand how you can claim that a unified front is their purposes. Their purpose is to serve their workers. Forcing all workers to behave the same way seems a poor interpretation of that duty.

Otherwise, sure it's fine to have a position on an issue and communicate it to members. What is not fine is to imply to members that if they make their own choice then the union will never support them should they have a problem, even for an unrelated issue, essentially stripping them of union support. This is what I meant by bullying, and have myself witnessed.

But if you insist that a unified front, rather than supporting workers, is their purpose then we fundamentally disagree, and I'll leave things by pointing out that the "unified front" can be to support worker choice & flexibility.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#669

Post by orthecreedence »

karl11 wrote: post #110
avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

Never thought I'd see the day Karl argued against unions...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#670

Post by ruph123 »

finiteseries wrote: post #548
ruph123 wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a naive world view is this to think that a large enough company goes “above and beyond” for their employees... As a German these American work ethics are so weird to me. You are being put on a stick and held over a bon fire and all you do is scream “turn me quicker“! What life is this to work your ass off for a company that demands crazy work hours, that can fire you for any reason with laughable notice period,…

That doesn’t describe even the most down on their luck FAANG engineer in the slightest, and the previous comment tried to make that obvious by defining two entirely separate sorts of employer relationships to consider. That you didn’t address the second type of relationship, specifically brought your nationality in, and ended by calling their nation a depressing dystopia brings this dangerously close into nationalist…

My point is: No publicly traded company goes “above and beyond” for their employees. They literally work for the interest of their shareholders. Individual workers’ rights do not matter for them. And a high salary is not everything, especially since “high” in the SV is still pretty average at best. I now know of several high skilled engineers who worked at Apple and Facebook who came back because they were burned out and in two cases could not even afford their family anymore in the bay area (with both couples working as engineers).

Your employer is not your friend who was kindly enough to take you in and spread your wings. And my point of bringing in Germany was this: The US labour laws are laughable, thus to make conditions better for workers they __have__ to unionize to put themselves in a stronger position.

I did not address the second type because I think it is a false equivalence. There is never a balance between worker and employer. FAANG companies are the richest and most influential companies in the world, if you think that a union will topple this power distribution, you are really naive.

Post reply on HN