A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#641

Post by fckthisguy » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #611

onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

I find it so hypocritical that so many people espouse the "American Dream" of working your way up and earning more and more, they get so upset that someone might want to protect what they've earned.

The truth is, many Google software engineers are unhappy with the political choices that Google are making. Yeah, they could vote with their feet and quit, but would you take a massive pay cut and financially destabilize your family as the first course of action? I wouldn't; I'd try to exact change from within, whilst protecting the benefits I'd earned in the workplace.

And all that's just looking at the individuals benefits. Unionising would mean that I, a straight white man, could help support policies that empower my minority co-workers.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#642

Post by borishn » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

Old tech companies had heavy machinery and workers were relatively easy to train and replace. The high-tech companies are nothing without their workers. I think in the future the high tech employees unions will be able to steer a larger share of profits towards themselves.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#643

Post by tempuser189 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #420

lr4444lr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of evidence that I've seen firsthand in municipal government of unions protecting and promoting incompetent IT talent. It doesn't all fall to @#$& solely because government tech is often very slow to change, so mediocre workers can train on very specific applications and not need much continuing ed. I scarcely ever met one that would get hired at either a FAANG or a tech startup. I will qualify this b…

Given the amount of incompetent talent I've seen promoted without a union because they cozy up to management I have a really hard time believing the picture would be any worse with them. Meritocracy is orthogonal to unionization, I think, though I doubt there's an employer in the world that doesn't believe that their decisions are entirely meritocratic. The argument "[institution]* tends to towards corruption therefo…

Oh trust me, it gets much much worse after unionization, since businesses have little ability to let go of unproductive workers.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#644

Post by pydry » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

tempuser189 wrote: post #643

pydry wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the amount of incompetent talent I've seen promoted without a union because they cozy up to management I have a really hard time believing the picture would be any worse with them. Meritocracy is orthogonal to unionization, I think, though I doubt there's an employer in the world that doesn't believe that their decisions are entirely meritocratic. The argument "[institution]* tends to towards corruption therefo…

Oh trust me, it gets much much worse after unionization, since businesses have little ability to let go of unproductive workers.

Well, sure. Nothing says trustworthy like a brand new anonymous user saying "trust me".

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#645

Post by jgwil2 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #110

avianlyric wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

> Comparing Germany to USA is pointless, very different government, history, culture, business climate, etc.

What nonsense. Comparing two countries is not the same as equating them. Of course we can compare and contrast the two, taking into account the differences. To suggest we cannot compare two different things is to deny a crucial tool of abstract, critical thinking.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#646

Post by dleslie » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #457

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can be done and what will be done are two entirely different concepts, though. What makes you confident that this time it will be different or that this union would be immune from the same issues that occur in other unions? If we’ve reached the point where the strongest arguments for unionizing is that maybe this time it will somehow be different than other unions, that’s not encouraging.

> the strongest arguments for unionizing is that maybe this time it will somehow be different than other unions I think the strongest argument for unionizing is that we know that this time is different from other times - wealth inequality is staggeringly high.

And so why would tech workers, who presently are generally in the upper decile of compensation, want to join an organization that may seek to diminish income disparity?

Seems like a leopards ate my face moment.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#647

Post by subsubzero » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #611

onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

The problem is a few companies pay very well, at senior+ levels, Google, FB, NFLX, AMZN, etc, If you work there for a few years and want to leave comp will be an extreme drop which given the cost of the bay area is a hard pill to swallow, why not try to unionize and fix a broken company?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#648

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #420

lr4444lr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of evidence that I've seen firsthand in municipal government of unions protecting and promoting incompetent IT talent. It doesn't all fall to @#$& solely because government tech is often very slow to change, so mediocre workers can train on very specific applications and not need much continuing ed. I scarcely ever met one that would get hired at either a FAANG or a tech startup. I will qualify this b…

Given the amount of incompetent talent I've seen promoted without a union because they cozy up to management I have a really hard time believing the picture would be any worse with them. Meritocracy is orthogonal to unionization, I think, though I doubt there's an employer in the world that doesn't believe that their decisions are entirely meritocratic. The argument "[institution]* tends to towards corruption therefo…

[deleted]

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#649

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

Everybody here seems to agree that unions have the potential to do good or bad. The next logical step to me is that there needs to be a selection mechanism in place.

For companies, it's competition. If someone else does better, the consumer or worker can choose someone else. And we have anti-monopoly laws to make sure that someone else exists, to foster that competition and choice.

Is there such a mechanism for unions? My ideal scenario wouldn't be me on my own as it is today. I'd want a handful of unions to pick from to represent me, not too differently from my choice of medical insurer. Five unions to represent 120,000 employees would still average 24,000 members each, so it's a huge step forward in collective bargaining. And then people can change unions if one of them ends up how folks are worried about in this and every other union thread.

It seems like it would get at all sides of the issue. We'd get collective representation and a safeguard against the potential pitfalls.

How could this scenario come about? Could it be something like medical insurance with an open enrollment season? There would need to be something akin to anti-competitive behavior built in, so you couldn't end up with an agreement saying you can only hire from our union. What else would it take?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#650

Post by forbiddenvoid » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #425

rdgthree wrote: post #94

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

Years ago, my friend was part of a small movement to unionize a certain universally hated company that rhymes with Omfast. They thought it would be a home run given all of the nonsense that goes on there. As it turns out, selling people on the idea of unionizing is much harder than it sounds. People weren’t even necessarily afraid of the company, they just didn’t want to be in a union. They, too, gathered a small num…

It's also the case that the leadership of said company communicates (or did 12 years ago) anti-union rhetoric to their employees on a regular basis (starting from orientation) and requests employees to report any unionizing talk from other employees. Always with the same language about how unions are bad for employees, etc.