A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#601

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #433

I made this point on HN before but I think it applies here. The world breaks out into two types of employers: those who try to hire outstanding people and go above and beyond for them, with the expectation that one of the attributes of these outstanding employees is that they likewise go above and beyond for the company. The alternative is employees who treat their employees like cattle and the employees treat the em…

> The first path [one of the attributes of these outstanding employees is that they likewise go above and beyond for the company] is much preferable for everyone.

I don’t think this view is as widely held as you might think. Or at least it depends on what you mean by going above and beyond. I want to be paid for a job, which I will do. I will do whatever needs to be done, including things outside my “official” duties, but when that clock hits 40 hours, it’s time to stop working. Maybe that’s going above and beyond or maybe not.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#602

Post by sidlls » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

panarky wrote: post #471

scsilver wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I full on support their goal to clean up their yard before moving somewhere else. Employees are stakeholders and can use their leverage as they please. You somehow cast a negative moral light on workers for using this leverage when every other stakeholder, managment, stockholders, board members, government agencies, voters all use their leverage to change the ecosystem. Entitlement? You are entitled to what you can g…

This shows how deeply ingrained right-wing ideology has become in America. Outside America it is obvious that billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs wield power in their own self-interest, and that workers benefit from collective action in their own self-interest. But inside America the billionaires, oligarchs and CEOs are mythologized as benevolent actors, and workers should be thankful for the gifts graciously bestowed u…

This comment does not deserve these downvotes. Not only is it not aggressively, negatively contentious or malicious, but it’s a thoughtful commentary on the state of worker/owner relations that has direct and specific relevance to tech work in general.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by davidfekke » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

I am not sure what good it will do to join a Union if you can't collectively bargain. You would essentially be paying dues out of your salary, and not getting anything in return. If you don't like Google, than quit.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#604

Post by davidfekke » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

I am not sure what good it will do to join a Union if you can't collectively bargain. You would essentially be paying dues out of your salary, and not getting anything in return. If you don't like Google, then quit.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by cactus2093 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

rafram wrote: post #501

ransom1538 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unintended consequences 1. Fat cats. What are the due fees? %1 now?, later then? %5 of gross annually? 200 people * 300k year * %5 of salary = 3 million. They will use this on fancy dinners with Google execs? Or spend it in "wrongful terminations" law suites with google for years? What happens when 50x more join. 2. Who runs it? Will it be a 10 year long president? What is her union salary? A non-google person? Will…

[flagged]

> It’s open to anyone working for Alphabet (besides, if it works like a typical union, management).

This to me kind of highlights the disconnect of unions in software engineering. In many companies including Google, there are parallel IC and management tracks. There are ICs in leadership positions but just without any reports. Does that mean, e.g. an L7 staff engineer can unionize but not an L5 manager?

And then it leads to me wonder, why can't managers unionize in a typical union? Even at a big old-fashioned manufacturing company with a union, the managers are still individual people who are separate from the company itself. Presumably the reason is that they already have better conditions, they're highly paid, maybe they're already aligned with company itself because they have an ownership stake or some incentive bonus structure. All of those arguments apply to software engineers as well.

This may be a cheesy analogy, but in some ways all software engineers in tech are already effectively the middle managers. They oversee the "assembly line" that generates the revenue for the business, which just happens to be software rather than people.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by my_username_is_ » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #444

jollofricepeas wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…

We might well be capable of creating a new type of union, but that's not what these organizers are doing. They're seeking to join a branch of the CWA, one of the existing union powerhouses.

Can someone explain why a small union may or may not want to affiliate with a larger union organization?

Did Google workers have other options here?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by caseysoftware » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #84

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

> Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions?

Are employees complaining/concerned about working conditions here?

I'm trying to imagine how Google would be a terrible or dangerous place to work.. especially after working from home for ~10 months now.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by trianglem » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

My concerns are that it will have licensing requirements to be a computer programmer. Also I like to work a few years and then take like a year off, I don’t think unions allow for this not working all the time structure.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#609

Post by pmoriarty » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

"engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better"."

That's only collective bargaining if a lot of them leave en masse (ie. collectively), and for the same issue(s). To do that effectively they'd need to organize, coordinate their efforts, and speak as one voice: in other words, they'd need to unionize.

Leaving one at a time, for different issues is not collective bargaining, it's individual bargaining, so not at all comparable to a union.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by diebeforei485 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #556

Siira wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions also fuck non-union members, which in turn creates a lot of economic deadweight and inefficiency.

No, that's just normal anti-union-FUD. A union doesn't have to imply that it controls everything, or that everyone has to be part of the union to work somewhere. A union could also just be a large entity that collectively bargain on behalf of the workers, and can do so better than they could separately. Often that involves stuff like better safety, pay, getting rid of bad stuff like non-competes etc. And where I'm fr…

It's not anti-union FUD. Unions killed housing bills in California this past year.