A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#531

Post by SkyBelow » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

>Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Google makes no sense, as there are thousands of tech companies hiring engineers in the valley -- engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better".

I feel like this is only half of the truth. They also help employees increase negotiating power as a counter to employers working together to increase their negotiating power (colluding on wages).

>The reality is that Google is an easy place to work relative to how much people get paid. People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too.

If by taking some action they get a bigger slice of cake, why shouldn't they take that action? Our economy is built off the idea of rational actors acting in their own self interest, so doing something to get you a bigger slice of cake at a lower (or equal) price fits the expected behavior of actors in such a system.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#532

Post by sjg007 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

esc_colon_q wrote: post #349

gandutraveler wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions will only help the rest & vest culture. I worked at Google and trust me there is so much fat that can be trimmed there. Especially the ones who have been there for 7+ years.. With unions it will get harder to fire them and at the same time they will need to be compensated equally. Software is not a profession where output is proportional to work hours like blue collar jobs. This will demoralize engineers to wo…

Yeah, so much of Google's culture is already about slowing down work so that it takes 10 (5 eng ICs + lead, analyst, manager, PM and PgM) to do the work that 2 engineers would do with identical quality in any other company, and the old-timers are the absolute worst in terms of keeping that status quo in place. I can't recall seeing a single team there that was properly sized and wouldn't function better with half the…

One day you will be the old timer that the young are trying to eat.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#533

Post by egypturnash » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

I have friends who are in the animation industry (which has been heavily unionized since the 50s) and they tell me the Union is constantly fighting with the studios over the studios trying to get more work out of them for less money.

I have friends in the visual effects industry (which has never been unionized) and their lives are full of stuff like effects houses that did work on award-winning films with huge budgets closing up without paying people because the studio skipped out on payments.

These are very similar fields in terms of skills. Both are mostly based in the same place. Both involve a lot of long hours working on stuff that flashes by in seconds. One has a union, one doesn’t. One is better off than the other.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#534

Post by anoncake » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

microtherion wrote: post #120

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Apple used to have easter eggs in its software, crediting individual engineers. Steve Jobs banned them, saying it would be unfair to give credit to individuals instead of the whole company, would make it easier for competitors to poach key engineers, etc. At the time, Jobs was also running Pixar, which never seemed to have problems in its movies to credit everybody down to the hairstylist of the second unit's caterer…

> The CEO banned them, saying it would be unfair to give credit to individuals instead of the whole company,

It sounds a lot less hypocritical this way.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#535

Post by thebean11 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #258

sz4kerto wrote: post #173

One difficulty I see with the mission statement ( https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen... ) is that it is very broad, and contains a lot of progressive values that are likely not as widely shared as the authors might expect. One might or might not agree with these values, but it is going to be significantly harder to start steering the company's product direction and social responsibility effo…

Seems to me that the organizers are using a union to push their own personal agendas (which they otherwise don't have the power to push) which seems like the perfect way to form a corrupt union that harms workers.

What agendas would a union push, other than the personal agendas of its members?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#536

Post by karaterobot » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

kenhwang wrote: post #180

microtherion wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple used to have easter eggs in its software, crediting individual engineers. Steve Jobs banned them, saying it would be unfair to give credit to individuals instead of the whole company, would make it easier for competitors to poach key engineers, etc. At the time, Jobs was also running Pixar, which never seemed to have problems in its movies to credit everybody down to the hairstylist of the second unit's caterer…

Credit everyone by name or credit no one by name. It is inherently unfair to only credit key talent.

At least part of the reason not to credit individual engineers is that it damages the myth of the genius CEO. Ask most people who invented the iphone, they will not say "it was the work of hundreds of people at a dozen companies inside and outside Apple", they'll say "Steve Jobs".

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#537

Post by grumple » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

rdgthree wrote: post #94

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

I don’t think this is correct. Maybe that’s for some place where there’s forced union membership?

I’ve worked at places where certain departments were unionized (for example hospitality) but others were not. Far below any such 30% threshold for total employment. Also unions form at individual worksites all the time, so I sincerely doubt there’s any company-wide membership requirements.

Edit: I'm correct. There's this concept of a bargaining unit, so it would only have to be workers doing a certain type of work in a certain place, generally, though it can be just those doing a certain type of work:

https://www.workplacefairness.org/labor-unions#4

A company like google could end up with hundreds of unions.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#538

Post by thesuitonym » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

finnthehuman wrote: post #98

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

>tell me what the terms of the contract will be and I'll decide for myself.

Nobody can tell you what the contract will be because the contract won't be drawn up until the union exists and has enough members to bargain.

What you DO know is the current contract you have. You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. You DO know that as a member of the union, you will have a vote in what employment contracts look like. You DO know that if you have an issue, you have someone outside the company that you can talk to about it--that is, you wont' get fired for bringing it up.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#539

Post by Dumblydorr » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #173

One difficulty I see with the mission statement ( https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen... ) is that it is very broad, and contains a lot of progressive values that are likely not as widely shared as the authors might expect. One might or might not agree with these values, but it is going to be significantly harder to start steering the company's product direction and social responsibility effo…

I think you should point out what specifically is too broad? They are pretty banal points about fairness, ethics, environment, we know that Google employees are likely to push for a blue-ish agenda, and it's really not controversial imo.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#540

Post by capableweb » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #525

capableweb wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract bargaining for the members is not the only thing a union usually does. There are loads more to it, great starting point to learn more about unions would be to read through the Wikipedia page before dismissing the idea, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union If it wasn't clear to people working at Google before, if the company moves somewhere in order to lessen the power of their employees, I sure ho…

> There are loads more to it, great starting point to learn more about unions A great starting point to sound condescending, as well.

Sorry, that was not my intention. My intention was to guide you to read more about the subject you're currently discussing, as your points make it pretty clear that the idea of what a union is, is much wider than what you think.