A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#441

Post by bslyke » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #173

One difficulty I see with the mission statement ( https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen... ) is that it is very broad, and contains a lot of progressive values that are likely not as widely shared as the authors might expect. One might or might not agree with these values, but it is going to be significantly harder to start steering the company's product direction and social responsibility effo…

Chicken, egg issue I think. The people most likely to seed the movement are gonna be activist type people whereas the actual majority of workers might just be left/libertarian leaning but mostly non-political people. Once the majority of workers are part of the union, and if it's really democratic, then the union should reflect what the members want it to reflect (even if it ends up being the same as the activists').

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by PragmaticPulp » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

fovc wrote: post #52

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

One positive byproduct is that union membership is a quality signal for both employers and employees. I.e., as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be less experienced; as an employee I know a movie using non union labor is not going to run as smoothly. Could be good for the startup market if this additional data point becomes reliable

> as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be less experienced;

The downside of unions is that they’re functionally a protection racket.

Getting into the union isn’t easy because union members don’t want to dilute their clout.

Being outside of the union makes it harder to get good work because the union will literally invest effort in shaming companies that hire you.

It’s fun to imagine the benefits of being inside a union, but we need to remember that creating the union will make life worse for those outside of it (young people, workers new to the industry).

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by mmaunder » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

SAG covers things like pension and healthcare which Google employees already have. It’s necessary because of the piecemeal nature of work in film. Not every actor is wealthy - that’s an edge case.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by SpicyLemonZest » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

jollofricepeas wrote: post #347

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Great point. The funny thing about unions is that the HN community believes that every other organization and industry can be disrupted...EXCEPT unions. It’s hilarious. The comments are usually all anecdotal with some story about an uncle or father who was “screwed over” by his union back in the 80s or 90s. We are capable of creating a new type of union and making collective bargaining better than what previous gener…

We might well be capable of creating a new type of union, but that's not what these organizers are doing. They're seeking to join a branch of the CWA, one of the existing union powerhouses.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by missedthecue » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

Bresenham wrote: post #403

appleflaxen wrote: post #172

The recurring theme in the comments against unions can be captured by a simple truth: Unions don't protect your interests; they protect their interests. Which is fundamentally true, and cannot be changed. So if your employment situation is so bad that you need a second, massively powerful, self-interested entity to negotiate with the massively powerful, self-interested entity in the hopes that your interests may happ…

> massively powerful, self-interested entity The difference is the union at some level ultimately has to answer to the workers who comprise the union, whereas the corporation is ultimately responsible to the majority stockholders who are expropriating surplus labor time from those working at corporations.

What's the difference between exproprating labor time and compensating for labor time (in Google's case excessively well)

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by datavirtue » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #208

appleflaxen wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You list teachers, who in my opinion are the poster children of how problematic unions are. And there are some phenomenal teachers out there. There are teachers that change lives profoundly. But they don't need the unions, and the terrible teachers who should be fired /are/ protected. It's really messed up, most people have first-hand experience with it, and they are a corrosive factor in the end.

This is the elephant in the room. Unions make it much harder to fire low performers. I think they have great benefits, but this terrible side effect. For another example look at police unions.

The barrier to removal creates low performers. I worked in education for years and saw first hand how lazy and shitty grown adults can be (professors). However, I would never condone eliminating unions. The faculty need a bastion against those who control the money ("the administration")--think about the separation of powers between the legislative and executive branches. Otherwise you would never have the few professors that make the whole system worth it. We need to strengthen unions and make sure the unions' and management are aligned on the same objective. This takes a rational and inclusive approach by both sides. In my experience if either side is mainly concerned with their own silo the whole thing gets very toxic. Unionized employees are not the enemy and neither are management.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by alchemism » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

inoop wrote: post #283

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" While I generally agree with the sentiment of your comment, I would like to point out that the above is only true for green card holders. There are a lot of H1B/L1B workers stuck at bad teams with high amounts of pressure/stress and incompetent or downright abusive managers. For them, leaving the company isn't an optio…

The best way to respond to a frivolous PIP as an employee is a frivolous harassment claim against the manager, sexual or otherwise.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#448

Post by petre » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #84

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

I am not against unionizing. But Hollywood's unions did not stop sexual harassement, in fact we've seen it was the norm with several names in the industry recently convicted for sexual harassement, assault and even rape.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by ineedasername » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

"to opposing Project Maven, to protesting the egregious, multi-million dollar payouts that have been given to executives who’ve committed sexual harassment

I don't see how a union will help these issues. They may demonstrate the power of collective action, but not the utility of a union for these particular types of issues.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by mrzimmerman » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #229

karl11 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

You're entitled to nothing. Given that it's 2021 and the entire workplace is in play, it's foolish to assume that the status quo is the status quo. The smart move is to have a contract that addresses various aspects of work.

That is exactly what unions do. They setup contracts with the employer to ensure protections and compensation using collective bargaining to balance out the power of the employer for the employer.

Collectively bargaining for hundreds or thousands of employees is obviously more powerful then a single individual bargaining against the same employer, especially when you factor in the information and resource asymmetry that exists in the latter situation.