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A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#371

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

It's significant in the sense that it shows google's sucesses in been fighting attempts to unionise. In addition for straight up prohibiting employees to gather in larger groups (no more than 100 per event or 10 rooms at once) they've been reading employee communications and firing people: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/02/google-spied-on-employees-il...

Also bring in consultants known for their "Union vulnerability assesments". i.e. Consultants for dissuading employees from unionizing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/technology/Google-union-c...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#372
post #231

I think a lot of the back and forth in this thread is dancing around the edges of a couple questions. Who really owns a company? I know legally who owns it. But a company is nothing without the people that work in it and who generate the ideas who keep it going. Shouldn't the majority of people in that company benefit and have a say how its run? Why should a handful of people who don't run the day to day operation or…

This depends on the company, size, whether it's structured to give employees some sort of proportional, equitable ownership stake, etc.. There are scenarios where founders/owners put in 100% of the equity at the start and/or ongoing, and it may not make sense for workers who conduct operations to take on ownership stakes, especially if those workers are all part-time for example.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#373
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

The better organizers will have a priority discussion.

What terms improve things for everyone? How should work be?

From there, they build solidarity around those terms.

When the vision maps to 80 / 90 percent of labor at that enterprise, the effort to unionize can win.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#375
I wish Google well on whatever it (legally) pursues to fight this. I see them as a company that has gone from great to now becoming mediocre, and whose employees are destroying it from within.

Maybe those clever interview quizzes should be updated to identify and filter out political zealots.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#376
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Apple used to have easter eggs in its software, crediting individual engineers. Steve Jobs banned them, saying it would be unfair to give credit to individuals instead of the whole company, would make it easier for competitors to poach key engineers, etc. At the time, Jobs was also running Pixar, which never seemed to have problems in its movies to credit everybody down to the hairstylist of the second unit's caterer…

To my knowledge, Pixar is non-union.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#377
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You list teachers, who in my opinion are the poster children of how problematic unions are. And there are some phenomenal teachers out there. There are teachers that change lives profoundly. But they don't need the unions, and the terrible teachers who should be fired /are/ protected. It's really messed up, most people have first-hand experience with it, and they are a corrosive factor in the end.

This is complicated, because public schools (and police departments, mentioned by another replier) are not for-profit entities. I don't think we can treat public employee unions and private employee unions the same. Public schools, police departments, etc., are usually "political" entities, run by elected officials such as school boards and city councils. I would say there's no guarantee whatsoever in these cases tha…

>Part of the reason for public employee unions is to protect the members specifically from political interference. The alternative is not necessarily "merit" based compensation but rather political favoritism and retribution.

And yet all forms of public sector employment, regardless of union status, are treated as staffing agencies who's hiring can be manipulated by those who traditionally hold the power of political interference. The best way to step up your career as a teacher, cop or other bureaucrat is to know a guy who knows a guy who's owed a favor by a politician who can write a recommendation on your behalf to an open position that you want to step up to. This is how people move from line level positions to administrative positions. (And before anyone says "but the police", they are somewhat insulated because they have strict traditions in their industry that have sway over career advancement.)

If the purpose of unions is to insulate the labor pool from political meddling then they have done an incredibly poor job at it.

I'm much more inclined to believe that the purpose of unions is to extract maximum concessions from the employer(s) for the benefit of the people they control while ignoring any externalities. In settings where labor is interchangeable and employed privately the benefits are clear and the downsides are very limited. But when you start talking about the police and teachers unions circling the wagons to protect people who behave badly while simultaneously attempting to extract maximum money from society it becomes much less clear whether the unions in question are an overall good thing. It's one thing for the union to try and extract more concessions from a corporation that would otherwise pocket the money and supposedly has competition to keep them from just passing on the cost without pressure to reduce margins. It's a whole different ethical ballgame when society will be footing the bill and there is no competition to keep downward pressure on costs.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#378
post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

You have merely to look at the animators on Disney's films prior to unionization.

I find the analogy very close to the stories I hear about coders in the game industry.

Google unionizing might sound odd to your ears, Electronics Arts programmers unionizing sounds like something that should have happened a decade ago.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. Google made something like 300,000 in profit per employee in 2019. There are regular complaints about benefits and pay multipliers being cut back. Why shouldn't workers seek to capture as much of their labor as possible? People don't seem to complain when businesses do that.

Just call it what it is, greed. Why is it greedy if company owners want to make money, but "good and social" if workers want to make money? I don't think the "earnings per employee" metric entitles employees to anything.

It's not. Both sides want money. Currently, a small minority of authoritarians (management is authoritarian by nature - and that's okay) get to decide how much of the company profit is shared with employees. Now, employees get to decide alongside them. This reduces the power differential between the groups. Now they can decide what fair is on a more level playing field.

This is simply about improving the power differential between management and labor. If that means more money, so be it. It may well not. It might be more about working conditions or projects.

I guess my question to you is why do you demand democracy in government, but accept authoritarianism at work no questions asked?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#380
post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

Unionizing doesn’t make sense is a great sentence for an HR person to speak. In truth, it’s about as real as ‘HR doesn’t make sense’. Unions are supposed to be a counterweight for HR in that they should care about employees in the same way HR cares about the company.
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