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A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aha! Wasn't aware of this rule change. Wonder how they'll garner the votes they need to fully form the union without internal rabblerousing digitally, and with offices being closed. Is it legal for a union to use employee info directories to contact employees outside of corp comms?

I've rarely found an employee directory that would contain people's personal email addresses. They might be stuck with calling people on the phone or something. Which might be for the best: Google controls probably nearly every employee's personal email address too!

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aha! Wasn't aware of this rule change. Wonder how they'll garner the votes they need to fully form the union without internal rabblerousing digitally, and with offices being closed. Is it legal for a union to use employee info directories to contact employees outside of corp comms?

I've rarely found an employee directory that would contain people's personal email addresses. They might be stuck with calling people on the phone or something. Which might be for the best: Google controls probably nearly every employee's personal email address too!

A good chunk of Google employees don't have a 'personal' phone. They use test android devices, or work-provided phones and plans. Google even has an internal program to migrate your personal phone number onto a corporate device.

Calls between employees will be video conferences over google servers anyway - nobody goes typing old fashioned phone numbers anymore...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's not a good example for benefits, but a good example for problems?

I think it's the exact opposite problem the tech industry has. The film industry has way more talent supply than the employment demands, which naturally suppresses pay. The guilds/unions are a way to increase scarcity to maintain pay and ease hiring. The tech industry has much less talent supply and much much much more employment demand. Tech might be better modeled after high skilled trade unions (which have a labor…

I disagree with this point to some extent. Look at video game devs, who have similar problems where there’s a lot of labor supply enabling abuses. Also look at the abuse capable of h1b visa holders.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#224
post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better".

I.e. not collectively bargaining, instead hoping that enough other people will individually decide put their livelihood on the line to give employers the impression that things should change up, after which they will not be able to enjoy the changes because they switched job (which can be a pain in the ass regardless of opportunities).

> The reality is that Google is an easy place to work relative to how much people get paid. People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too.

The relationship between an employer and employee is naturally adversarial in that there's a fundamental conflict between their interests. As an employee, I want to be paid as much as possible for my work (indeed as little work as possible), and I want it to be as pleasant as possible. The employer on the other hand will want me to do as much work as possible at as little cost as possible. Of course I want to provide value to my employer, and my employer wants to provide value to me, but that's because we both have my employment as a bargaining chip. That's my only chip, but it's only one of Google's ~100000.

In those terms, if you can approach having the cake and eating it, why not? Why should only my employer organize and use their massive resources to achieve their goals to the greatest extent possible, while workers should willfully stay disorganized and never utilize their collective influence like a corporation will? Because having two cakes is bad? There's certainly more than enough cake to go around in FAANG.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#225
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

> but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. Google made something like 300,000 in profit per employee in 2019. There are regular complaints about benefits and pay multipliers being cut back. Why shouldn't workers seek to capture as much of their labor as possible? People don't seem to complain when businesses do that.

> Google made something like 300,000 in profit per employee in 2019.

Isn’t this roughly the same order of magnitude as many Google developer salaries? If so, how much more expensive can any employee be before he is too expensive to employ?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#226
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

> It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. This phrasing is disingenuous. If you don't like what's going on you can stay and fight rather than giving up and leaving. The people unionizing are of the "stay and fight" variety. Where does this false dichotomy come from that your only optio…

It probably comes the people that would prefer you shut up and stay.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#227
post #75
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

I find really, really baffling the general position in the US regarding unions. It is like there's a general discourse that they are a bad thing, just like with "that other" thing (cough socialism cough). This is even more strange when you find out about police unions - that are widespread -, and what their power is. From my point of view actions of police union are usually borderline "mob-like" (as in, I mostly hear…

> I find really, really baffling the general position in the US regarding unions. It is like there's a general discourse that they are a bad thing, just like with "that other" thing (cough socialism cough).

I'm from the 'birthplace' of US Auto unions. This part of your reply is actually a good place to start the explanation, because that's actually the perception of some other unions, and at times there is historical context to that.

> From my point of view actions of police union are usually borderline "mob-like" (as in, I mostly hear about them when they save the necks of abusing and / or corrupted officers).

Two points:

- The UAW and Teamsters in particular had ties to actual mob organizations in the past. "Jimmy Hoffa" is a name to look up if you'd like an example of what some people think of when they think of unions.

- The examples you give of corruption/status quo in police unions are present in the Auto shops as well; whenever I heard a story from an auto worker about why 'they' did not like the unions, it was usually a story like what you said; a worker getting 'protected' by the union when their actions were unsafe. IOW even some of the people -in- the union see it as a broken institution.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#228
post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> This is because those unions are serving a very different purpose to the stereotypical union some engineers seem to fear. SAG, the DGA, and the WGA aren't guaranteeing hours or limiting pay: they're simply trying to curb abuse in what it a very abusive industry, and putting in place procedures to protect members and resolve grievances.

This is an important point, and one I haven't thought of before - I think Americans often think of Unions as organizations that prevent layoffs and gain ever higher benefits, to the detriment of the company. Indeed, this announcement confirms their goals are slightly different from a typical union's goals:

> Its goal will be to tackle ongoing issues like pay disparity, retaliation, and controversial government contracts.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#229
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want to leave a cushy job for one where they would have to work harder for their money, so instead, they are trying other means to have their cake and eat it too. You're saying this like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't employees expect, and get, better working conditions? > engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better" How is individuals leaving "coll…

Employees can ask for better, but when you already work at the company that pays and treats their employees like Google, I'm not sure what more you are entitled to. It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. There are very few perils of leaving Google - a top tier company in an industry t…

You're entitled to nothing. Given that it's 2021 and the entire workplace is in play, it's foolish to assume that the status quo is the status quo.

The smart move is to have a contract that addresses various aspects of work.

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