A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#111

Post by avianlyric » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:02 PM UTC

rdgthree wrote: post #94

It seems incredibly significant that only 230 people are officially involved with these plans to unionize. As of 2019, Google had nearly 120,000 employees.[0] That seems quite small, relatively speaking. Legally (I think, just learning about this now), to form a union, a majority of workers must show their willingness to form a union. Alternatively, to choose an existing union to join, an election with 30% of the wor…

Reading the article, it sounds like they do need to find ~40,000 votes. The article mentions that now they've announced the unionisation attempt, they're gonna starting doing lots of public campaigning to collect the votes they need.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#112

Post by mhb » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

fovc wrote: post #52

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

One positive byproduct is that union membership is a quality signal for both employers and employees. I.e., as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be less experienced; as an employee I know a movie using non union labor is not going to run as smoothly. Could be good for the startup market if this additional data point becomes reliable

So the way that educational outcomes have been improving as a result of union teachers with seniority being paid more?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#113

Post by kenhwang » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

pacificat0r wrote: post #83

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

So these are really good examples, but I still don't understand what unions can do for 1% of someone's pay. They kind of look like subscription services, or worse places you have to join or else there are unintended consequences from other examples where they mention looking at union membership as an indicator of some experience (so kind of like a tax). The screen actors guild and all the movie-related guilds seem in…

The film industry operates on a gig-by-gig basis. Imagine drafting a legal contract for every sprint. Because you're working at a different company every sprint. Or interviewing/hiring new people every sprint. Kinda how the film industry works.

Way easier to just have standardized union contracts, pay rates, and expectations for everyone involved and have the union provide benefits.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#114

Post by _qulr » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

mondoshawan wrote: post #63

Googler here, these articles are literally the first I've heard of it. No internal emails, rabblerousing, or any kind of comms about it, and it seems as though the union discussed doesn't actually exist yet. Seems a bit odd (and bad reporting), but we'll see where it goes. After watching how a mechanics union did absolutely nothing while CEOs ripped apart my Dad's pension and put him through hell, I have a bit of a d…

> After watching how a mechanics union did absolutely nothing while CEOs ripped apart my Dad's pension and put him through hell, I have a bit of a dim view on this sort of thing to begin with.

I would say that unions aren't magical entities. They're a necessary but not a sufficient condition for protecting the interests of workers. A union is only as good as its membership. If union members think they can just pay their union dues and expect the benefits to magically accrue, that's not going to happen. Union members have to take a very active part in governance of their union, and immediately remove any union leaders who start to show signs of corruption. Complacency is the enemy. As soon as unions become "hierarchical", it's game over, and the union is no better than the management it was designed to fight against.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#115

Post by 3np » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:03 PM UTC

pacificat0r wrote: post #83

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

So these are really good examples, but I still don't understand what unions can do for 1% of someone's pay. They kind of look like subscription services, or worse places you have to join or else there are unintended consequences from other examples where they mention looking at union membership as an indicator of some experience (so kind of like a tax). The screen actors guild and all the movie-related guilds seem in…

One thing I can see a SE guild improving is clarity and consistency with things like license compliance, unenforceable attempts to restrict of ownership and development of software created in ones free time, assistance in stock options negotiations, and other things that regularly come up here.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#116

Post by humanrebar » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

wasmitnetzen wrote: post #24

mensetmanusman wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there precedent for a group of unrelated individuals who happen to be in the same industry ‘unionizing’ ? Edit: answer of course is guilds, thanks commenters :) The word union threw me off. One could totally imagine an ‘app developers guild’ to help defend against the big guys. Go start one!

In Germany, there are "Genossenschaften"[1], which are cooperatives organized by small members to further a common commercial interest. For example, winemakers, which are often family businesses (at least in the area I'm from), often form them to sell wine, to have better leverage against the buyers, which are usually big companies like Aldi. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eingetragene_Genossenschaft

They have these in the U.S. Chambers of Commerce and industry organizations, especially lobbying groups, are numerous.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#117

Post by sanxiyn » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

joeblau wrote: post #96

sanxiyn wrote: post #54

Good luck! From a fellow unionized digital worker. I work at Kakao, a South Korean firm known for KakaoTalk (the dominant messenger application in South Korea).

How would you describe your experience being a unionized digital worker?

It's pretty good. For example, initially the company was reluctant to transition to remote work for COVID-19 pandemic, but workers' concern was well represented.

My impression is that among South Korean digital companies, unionized companies transitioned to remote work earlier.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#118

Post by swebs » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:06 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #18

mountainb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The assumption that they would have to be hallucinating to be recounting a standard tale of union intimidation is very funny. That's what a union is for: thugging on people. You have to have soft hands to believe anything else.

Isn't that tale the reverse of that - i.e. a tale of intimidating union members? I find it hard to believe stuff like this would fly in a major city of a western country in 21st century, even in the United States. Though I can't honestly discount it completely either...

Look up the story of Jimmy Hoffa sometime. Its really fascinating.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#119

Post by jcims » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

kenhwang wrote: post #74

bitcharmer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question as I don't know that industry at all. How does being a member of a union imply more experience?

The unions (edit: film industry) require a certain amount of work experience to join and some have different levels of membership depending on how much work you do after joining. Because everyone prefers union workers, it creates a situation where the non-union worker has to get noticed somehow (nepotism or exceptional work) to convince someone to take a risk and hire them to earn enough work to gain union membership…

>Because everyone prefers union workers

Everyone? What union are you talking about?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#120

Post by microtherion » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

Apple used to have easter eggs in its software, crediting individual engineers. Steve Jobs banned them, saying it would be unfair to give credit to individuals instead of the whole company, would make it easier for competitors to poach key engineers, etc.

At the time, Jobs was also running Pixar, which never seemed to have problems in its movies to credit everybody down to the hairstylist of the second unit's caterer by name. Hmm… could it be that… they were unionized and we were not?