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Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

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Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#181

Post by fatbird »

ajxs wrote: post #178

Reading through the Wikipedia article detailing serious issues with the avionics software's development[0], I can't help but think of the choice to use C++ as the standard language for development on most of the JSF's systems. I recall reading a document written by the (then-current) lead dev on the project outlining the criteria used to assess C++'s suitability for the project. He conceded that Ada was the superior…

Has there ever been a study done of the costs of retraining an X programmer as a Y programmer? Talent availability is a huge factor for any development project; but if the software program clearly showed that Ada was superior, one wonders at the cost of taking all those experienced C++ coders and retraining them on Ada.

Ideally, such a study would show a matrix of the dominant language a coder uses, and the costs/time to get them comparably efficient in another language.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#182

Post by souprock »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #118

As I read this latest update on the F-35 I can't stop thinking about the $741 billion the US Congress just approved. Bipartisan. And overrode a POTUS veto. In the 2016 State of the Union Obama said, "We spend more on our military than the next eight nations combined." The budget then was significantly less. And the F-35 is just now finally being snuffed?

We like our aircraft "Made in USA" for obvious reasons. An aircraft "Made in China" is a great way to save money, and it works fine for China.

It probably doesn't help that practically every congressional district gets to make a piece of the aircraft.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#183

Post by sn_master »

waiseristy wrote: post #8

After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan, I'm wondering if the US's customers are pushing for these cheaper drone options instead of the F35. The F35 has been in development so long, that it's seeing its own combat role supplanted

Neither party had modern fighter jets.

If Armenia had a dozen F-35s with a good stock of LGBs, I am sure they would have gotten the edge on azerbaijan regardless of how many drones the other party uses.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#184

Post by euler_angles »

mhh__ wrote: post #53
belval wrote: post #21

Can someone more knowledgeable than me in this matter explain why fighter jets still require human pilots? Why aren't they completely replaced by drones?

1. Technology isn't there yet - the recent AI vs. F-16 thing was a publicity stunt: The performance of the AI was impressive, but it was both cheating and competing in an environment where the pilot wasn't really comfortable (IIRC Simulators are almost never used to practice combat tactics, so they might as well've got a competitive DCS player in) 2. A pilot isn't just a sack of meat that uses monkey-instincts to ste…

Simulators are used quite regularly to practice combat tactics! In fact, that's one of the intended uses of the Joint Simulation Environment that the article discusses.

DCS's missile simulation models are so far from the real thing that DCS is what simulation engineers refer to as "negative training". That is, if you train to fight using DCS, you're training to fight within DCS, not training in a way that's going to carry over to the real world. DCS is fine for what it is -- a simulation that reflects as much of the pilot/vehicle interface of various aircraft as is possible. But when it comes to sensors and weapons, it's very far from reality.

The Alpha Dogfight trials were a PR stunt but they were also a part of a larger program to see how AI technology can assist human pilots. Alpha Dogfight is akin to things like Deep Blue/Alpha Go in that it has opened up a whole domain to further research and deployment of AI systems to assist humans.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#185

Post by sn_master »

waiseristy wrote: post #129
nickff wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a close follower of F-35 development, and of the A&A conflict, I am not exactly sure what you mean. The F-35 would have been very useful to either side willing to use it for the SEAD/wild weasel role.

In a land of infinite wealth I would want an army of 10,000 F-35's. In a poor backwater just outside of Turkey, I would want an army of 10,000 suicide drones

Iran had only a few dozen F-14s and it shifted the balance of power significantly in the Iran-Iraq war, even in the presence of the powerful Iraqi air defense, which the F-35 being stealthy doesn't need to worry about. Don't underestimate what a powerful modern fighter can do.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#186

Post by baybal2 »

ardit33 wrote: post #36
waiseristy wrote: post #8

After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan, I'm wondering if the US's customers are pushing for these cheaper drone options instead of the F35. The F35 has been in development so long, that it's seeing its own combat role supplanted

Bingo. The F-35 as a bomb delivery platform might be already obsolete, as drones are far cheaper. You still need air defense/air superiority fighter though.

F-35 combat range is "only" 1000km, and will get smaller with heavier munitions.

Say, you get 500km range if you want to drop 20t of bombs, have 8 planes, and want to have safety margins.

500km is easily within the range of even the most primitive tactical missile like Oka, and retaliatory airstrikes.

On other hand, you will have a very busy forward airfield, with tiny airstrip, with a lot of very expensive planes, and long times to sortie, and very close to the enemy.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#187

Post by syshum »

mkr-hn wrote: post #31
waiseristy wrote: post #8

After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan, I'm wondering if the US's customers are pushing for these cheaper drone options instead of the F35. The F35 has been in development so long, that it's seeing its own combat role supplanted

The F-35 is the Capacitance Electronic Disc (CED) player of war machines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnpX8d8zRIA Perfect for the era development started in, but useless for the era when it was finally shippable.

The F-35 was never about actual combat

I do not believe for a second the F-35 was ever designed to be an actual combat jet, I think is was all just a giant smoke screen to serve several political goals on both the domestic and Foreign fronts.

It is simultaneously a prime example of a Jet designed by committee, a 1 Trillion + dollar program that will never serve the purpose it was sold to the taxpayers for...

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#188

Post by skissane »

tpmx wrote: post #108
waiseristy wrote: post #8

After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan, I'm wondering if the US's customers are pushing for these cheaper drone options instead of the F35. The F35 has been in development so long, that it's seeing its own combat role supplanted

> After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan I don't think I was the only one to miss how that conflict related to the F35. Do tell?

> I don't think I was the only one to miss how that conflict related to the F35. Do tell?

Turkey had a lot of success in its Syria incursion using lots of relatively inexpensive drones. Syria's Russian-equipped air defence systems struggled to stop them. And then Turkey-equipped Azerbaijan used the same drones to great success in the recent war against Armenia.

The message is that the future of warfare is drones that cost $5 million each not fighter jets that cost $100 million each (which is the ballpark the F-35 is in). You can buy 20 of the former for the cost of one of the later. And the question is, what military benefit does that one fighter jet give you compared to the twenty drones you could spend the same money on?

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#189

Post by euler_angles »

cartoonfoxes wrote: post #98
stretchcat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh boy I couldn't disagree more, the F-22 is doubtlessly cool, but it has nothing on the YF-23. And the X-32 was positively adorable (which isn't cool I guess, but I still love it.) I think the F-35 is downright fugly though, it's too bloated and bumpy looking.

That's why the F-35's nickname is "Fat Amy".

In case someone reads this comment and wonders what the actual names of this aircraft are:

The official name is the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter. It comes in three variants:

* F-35A (Conventional TakeOff/Landing - CTOL)

* F-35B (Short TakeOff/Vertical Landing - STOVL)

* F-35C (Carrier Variant - CV)

While an unofficial nickname hasn't solidly grabbed on, I think, given that USAF Fighter Weapons School calls it the "Panther", that will probably be what holds at least in the US.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#190

Post by baybal2 »

jariel wrote: post #126
mrtksn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drones should be inherently better anyway since they don’t have to carry 80KG of meat that needs to be kept alive.

They are not comparable. Drones are 'slow moving sitting ducks' that can be easily destroyed by an enemy with basic capabilities. You need 'some degree of air superiority' to use drones. That could mean extensive electronic warfare or whatever. But drones, in the way they are used as we see them today ... are easy targets for anyone with capability. So they are different things. Now, that said, it still may make more…

A very valid observation, undeservedly downvoted.

But, a counter argument to that is that your adversary can simply launch a wall of 20 drones with one A2A missile for every of your F-35, and 20 more to bomb its airfield, and still win attrition-wise.

If prices for drones will continue to drop at the current pace, soon they will become near disposable by standards of military hardware.

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