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Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

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Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#71

Post by pjc50 »

WJW wrote: post #41
guscost wrote: post #11

Weird theory of mine: The DoD ultimately picks these winning planes based on which one “looks cooler” or basically has better aesthetics. I think the F-35 has better aesthetics than the Boeing X-32, just like the F-22 has better aesthetics than the YF-23. You could say I’m used to seeing the winning designs as “normal”, but I distinctly remember having this reaction before the JSF competition was over.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

Used to be done with uniforms. Hence the Pope's guards with Michelangelo uniforms, and the Nazis with Hugo Boss.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#72

Post by sandworm101 »

ardit33 wrote: post #36
waiseristy wrote: post #8

After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan, I'm wondering if the US's customers are pushing for these cheaper drone options instead of the F35. The F35 has been in development so long, that it's seeing its own combat role supplanted

Bingo. The F-35 as a bomb delivery platform might be already obsolete, as drones are far cheaper. You still need air defense/air superiority fighter though.

And the f-35 is neither. It is the complement to the f-22, not its replacement. There are more effective air superiority fighters out there for far less money.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#73

Post by mhh__ »

mkr-hn wrote: post #31
waiseristy wrote: post #8

After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan, I'm wondering if the US's customers are pushing for these cheaper drone options instead of the F35. The F35 has been in development so long, that it's seeing its own combat role supplanted

The F-35 is the Capacitance Electronic Disc (CED) player of war machines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnpX8d8zRIA Perfect for the era development started in, but useless for the era when it was finally shippable.

> Perfect for the era development started in, but useless for the era when it was finally shippable.

Are you any good at lottery numbers?

Traditional fighters will probably lull in use in between the proliferation of drones, and the proliferation of countermeasures to those drones.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#74

Post by nitwit005 »

waiseristy wrote: post #8

After seeing what happened in Armenia & Azerbaijan, I'm wondering if the US's customers are pushing for these cheaper drone options instead of the F35. The F35 has been in development so long, that it's seeing its own combat role supplanted

There were always far cheaper options than what they chose to build. They didn't seem to care.

They seem to care more about delays and possible unreliability than squandering billions of dollars.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#75

Post by pjc50 »

sandworm101 wrote: post #57
WJW wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

Sun Tzu didnt have stealth aircraft. In many ways, if they see enough of you to be intimidated then they can see enough of you to kill you. The f-35 wants to make the kill before the target even realizes it is in danger, let alone sees the aircraft comming. I doubt Sun Tzu would have encouraged his spies or saboteurs to stand out from the crowd.

Not in the skies, in Jane's Defense Weekly.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#76

Post by Judgmentality »

anonisko wrote: post #68
Judgmentality wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In any case it's also good military thinking. Or more likely enemies see it as posturing and strike full force, thinking they can pierce the superficial veil of technological supremacy. Come on, security theater is bullshit. How many people actually think the TSA does anything useful? If anything it lulls people into a false sense of safety, making us weaker. If our enemies are so easily deterred that our appearanc…

It's not complete bullshit. Against other sophisticated actors, yeah, it's bullshit. But posturing and intimidation is important to keep less sophisticated actors in check.

Who are the less sophisticated actors willing to attack a military based solely on appearance of 'not looking intimidating?'

We're talking about a fighter jet, not a security guard.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#77

Post by HPsquared »

Judgmentality wrote: post #47
WJW wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

> In any case it's also good military thinking. Or more likely enemies see it as posturing and strike full force, thinking they can pierce the superficial veil of technological supremacy. Come on, security theater is bullshit. How many people actually think the TSA does anything useful? If anything it lulls people into a false sense of safety, making us weaker. If our enemies are so easily deterred that our appearanc…

Human factors are real.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#78

Post by mhh__ »

DanCarvajal wrote: post #42
porphyra wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the F-22 has better aesthetics than the YF-23. The YF-23 looks super awesome with its diamond-shaped wing. The Boeing X-32's frog-mouthed appearance is a bit ugly though.

YF-23 is 30 years old and still looks futuristic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Bird_of_Prey

That makes this positively alien then

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#79

Post by mrtksn »

porphyra wrote: post #18
guscost wrote: post #11

Weird theory of mine: The DoD ultimately picks these winning planes based on which one “looks cooler” or basically has better aesthetics. I think the F-35 has better aesthetics than the Boeing X-32, just like the F-22 has better aesthetics than the YF-23. You could say I’m used to seeing the winning designs as “normal”, but I distinctly remember having this reaction before the JSF competition was over.

I don't think the F-22 has better aesthetics than the YF-23. The YF-23 looks super awesome with its diamond-shaped wing. The Boeing X-32's frog-mouthed appearance is a bit ugly though.

YF-23 looks like what the non-human enemy would have used.

It’s cool but it doesn’t look like “ours”. I guess that the “If we are the goodies why the weapons look alien” question comes to mind since people would always think that they are the good ones and the foreigners are the ones that we should be suspicious of.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#80

Post by fishnchips »

mhh__ wrote: post #64
fishnchips wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t jamming the satellite affect F-35, too?

Yes and no. The whole thesis of the F-35 is apparently an airborne sensor fusion and electronic warfare platform as well as a modern BVR jet - it's going to be harder to jam because of both redundancy and the amount of hardware real estate the designers can play with to counter said jamming. On the subject of electronic warfare - I assume it's still very classified but given that the current teen series aircraft appa…

Radar jamming and other magic aside, I’m just wondering to what extent the equipment in a modern jet like F-35 depends on satellite link. So to what extent putting a human in the machine actually changes its capability as opposed to a drone with an autonomous mode.
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