Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold • Hacker News Board

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#61

Post by strictnein » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

lsllc wrote: post #37

slac wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cost is one of the deciding factors...

They'll just keep upgrading the F-18 design, new avionics, better engines, airframe tweaks. Way cheaper than the F-35. The B-52's are still in service after 60+ years, with pretty much everything upgraded several times over.

You can't make the F-18 a stealth fighter. But those planes will still be used for a long time. The F-15 may even be making a small comeback: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a26413900...

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#62

Post by manfredo » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #7

It's really baffling that the US isn't looking more heavily at cheaper, easier to field aircraft like the A-29 Super Tucano for counter-insurgency operations like Iraq and Afghanistan.

The A-29 is functionally not all that different than armed drones like the predator or reaper. Except the latter have an even longer loiter time, and take pilot losses out of the equation.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#63

Post by stretchcat » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #57

WJW wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

Sun Tzu didnt have stealth aircraft. In many ways, if they see enough of you to be intimidated then they can see enough of you to kill you. The f-35 wants to make the kill before the target even realizes it is in danger, let alone sees the aircraft comming. I doubt Sun Tzu would have encouraged his spies or saboteurs to stand out from the crowd.

The enemies of America are presumably meant to see American stealth aircraft in movies and TV shows, not over their capitols.

However, I think these airplanes are indeed designed foremost for function. The similar appearances of the B-1 and Tu-160 suggest that when two planes are designed using similar technology with similar mission requirements, they tend to have a lot of similarities. (In the years since they were initially designed, the way these aircraft are used has changed. But they were initially designed to meet similar requirements.)

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#64

Post by mhh__ » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

fishnchips wrote: post #50

bodhiandphysics wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drones are dependent on an active satellite link to function. What happens if the enemy jams the satellite?

Wouldn’t jamming the satellite affect F-35, too?

Yes and no. The whole thesis of the F-35 is apparently an airborne sensor fusion and electronic warfare platform as well as a modern BVR jet - it's going to be harder to jam because of both redundancy and the amount of hardware real estate the designers can play with to counter said jamming.

On the subject of electronic warfare - I assume it's still very classified but given that the current teen series aircraft apparently have some serious EW magic in them (I don't have any citations for exactly what they can do other than I read some comments by IIRC an Australian ground radar operator and apparently they were completely outgunned - i.e. fake formations rather than mere jamming) I think we will be reading about exactly they can do at great length on the hackernews's of the future.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#65

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

belval wrote: post #21

Can someone more knowledgeable than me in this matter explain why fighter jets still require human pilots? Why aren't they completely replaced by drones?

[deleted]

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#66

Post by SpaceRaccoon » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #16

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #2

Good. The whole thing should be shut down.

It is not good. Like it or not, this is the only alternative NATO has for the forceable future. The British Tempest and the French/German stealth fighter won’t be operational until 2035-2040 The only alternative are modernizes 4gen fighters which are very vulnerable to modern air defenses. A ‘buggy’ F-35 might still be a better alternative. Also the British are counting for the F-35 to equip its carriers.

There's speculation that the cutting edge radars fielded by China and Russia can detect stealth aircraft, so the advantage may be moot now.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#67

Post by ben_w » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #57

WJW wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

Sun Tzu didnt have stealth aircraft. In many ways, if they see enough of you to be intimidated then they can see enough of you to kill you. The f-35 wants to make the kill before the target even realizes it is in danger, let alone sees the aircraft comming. I doubt Sun Tzu would have encouraged his spies or saboteurs to stand out from the crowd.

On the other hand, the foreign government may see pictures of the plane and go “that’s scary” and not start the fight which the less-scary-more-stealthy alternative can win better.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#68

Post by anonisko » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

Judgmentality wrote: post #47

WJW wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

> In any case it's also good military thinking. Or more likely enemies see it as posturing and strike full force, thinking they can pierce the superficial veil of technological supremacy. Come on, security theater is bullshit. How many people actually think the TSA does anything useful? If anything it lulls people into a false sense of safety, making us weaker. If our enemies are so easily deterred that our appearanc…

It's not complete bullshit. Against other sophisticated actors, yeah, it's bullshit. But posturing and intimidation is important to keep less sophisticated actors in check.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#69

Post by lumost » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #16

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #2

Good. The whole thing should be shut down.

It is not good. Like it or not, this is the only alternative NATO has for the forceable future. The British Tempest and the French/German stealth fighter won’t be operational until 2035-2040 The only alternative are modernizes 4gen fighters which are very vulnerable to modern air defenses. A ‘buggy’ F-35 might still be a better alternative. Also the British are counting for the F-35 to equip its carriers.

I keep hearing concerns that modern radars may be able to defeat the F-35's stealth, or will be able to defeat it in the near future. I can't help but think that it will be hard to keep a plane flying at mach 1 hidden in the face of fast scanning and networked phased array radars with modern deep learning based detection algorithms.

My understanding is that if you take away the stealth aspect the F-35 is a sluggish fighter bomber that would be outperformed by most 4th gens. Considering an F-35 is nearly the price of 10 4th gen fighters the choice to "upgrade" becomes pretty suspect for a lot of Nato partners.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#70

Post by strictnein » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 10:43 PM UTC

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #24

ardit33 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not good. Like it or not, this is the only alternative NATO has for the forceable future. The British Tempest and the French/German stealth fighter won’t be operational until 2035-2040 The only alternative are modernizes 4gen fighters which are very vulnerable to modern air defenses. A ‘buggy’ F-35 might still be a better alternative. Also the British are counting for the F-35 to equip its carriers.

Buggy? It barely works. Short flight time. Crap wing loading. Not good at any of it's multi-roles. We could build 5-10 F-16s for each F-35, and many more A-10s, and they'd be better despite being ancient designs. They're so expensive we can't even do proper flight training in them, it'd cost too much if we break one.

> "Crap wing loading"

Yes, why does this super stealthy plane not have support for lots of reflecting metal things hanging from its wings?