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Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

thedrive.com

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Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#51

Post by laverya »

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #30
strictnein wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which plane, exactly, is superior to the F-35?

Pretty much anything from the last generation. Embarrassingly the F-16 beat it in combat, for example. For close air support the A-10 is vastly superior. The F-35 is an employment program like the TSA.

> For close air support the A-10 is vastly superior.

Vastly superior for providing CAS in uncontested airspace against enemies that struggle to acquire MANPADS, let alone a modern air defense network or their own air force, perhaps.

But the argument is that the US military should be designed for fighting the biggest plausible enemy, and that's Russia or China, not goat herders in Afghanistan. A major inefficiency in counterinsurgent air support is expensive and survivable, using A-10s against a major threat isn't.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#52

Post by andromeduck »

strictnein wrote: post #32
animex wrote: post #17

I feel like there's an orchestrated PR campaign around making these F-35s sound like a success. I wonder what exists for objective reporting & analysis in this space.

I mean, there's real life, like Israel taking out advanced Chinese radars: https://defence-blog.com/news/source-israeli-f-35-destroyed-... Which China claimed could detect the F-22: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23846/chi...

with drop tanks attached

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#53

Post by mhh__ »

belval wrote: post #21

Can someone more knowledgeable than me in this matter explain why fighter jets still require human pilots? Why aren't they completely replaced by drones?

1. Technology isn't there yet - the recent AI vs. F-16 thing was a publicity stunt: The performance of the AI was impressive, but it was both cheating and competing in an environment where the pilot wasn't really comfortable (IIRC Simulators are almost never used to practice combat tactics, so they might as well've got a competitive DCS player in)

2. A pilot isn't just a sack of meat that uses monkey-instincts to steer the plane forward, they are a cog in a very large machine both making decisions and following and interpreting orders as the situation changes around them.

Drone jets have existed for decades, they're called cruise missiles.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#54

Post by strictnein »

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #30
strictnein wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which plane, exactly, is superior to the F-35?

Pretty much anything from the last generation. Embarrassingly the F-16 beat it in combat, for example. For close air support the A-10 is vastly superior. The F-35 is an employment program like the TSA.

Interesting how you heard about that one dogfight, but not its record since then. Again, places like The Drive have been pushing bad F-35 news because it draws lots of clicks.

The F-35's k/d ratio since that dogfight in 2015, when pilots were just figuring the plane out:

15-1

https://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-once-beaten-by-f-16s-sh...

> Since then, the F-35 has mopped up in simulated dogfights with a 15-1 kill ratio. According to retired Lt. Col. David Berke, who commanded a squadron of F-35s and flew an F-22 — the US's most agile, best dogfighter — the jet has undergone somewhat of a revolution.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#55

Post by mhh__ »

bfieidhbrjr wrote: post #24
ardit33 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not good. Like it or not, this is the only alternative NATO has for the forceable future. The British Tempest and the French/German stealth fighter won’t be operational until 2035-2040 The only alternative are modernizes 4gen fighters which are very vulnerable to modern air defenses. A ‘buggy’ F-35 might still be a better alternative. Also the British are counting for the F-35 to equip its carriers.

Buggy? It barely works. Short flight time. Crap wing loading. Not good at any of it's multi-roles. We could build 5-10 F-16s for each F-35, and many more A-10s, and they'd be better despite being ancient designs. They're so expensive we can't even do proper flight training in them, it'd cost too much if we break one.

> 5-10 F-16s

The new F-16V costs as near as makes no difference the cost of an F-35

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#56

Post by mhh__ »

lsllc wrote: post #45
ardit33 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not good. Like it or not, this is the only alternative NATO has for the forceable future. The British Tempest and the French/German stealth fighter won’t be operational until 2035-2040 The only alternative are modernizes 4gen fighters which are very vulnerable to modern air defenses. A ‘buggy’ F-35 might still be a better alternative. Also the British are counting for the F-35 to equip its carriers.

I was going to correct you and say maybe you meant the Typhoon, not Tempest, but indeed there is a proposed UK aircraft program called Tempest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest

£2Bn seems like a hilariously British amount of money to develop a modern fighter for.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#57

Post by sandworm101 »

WJW wrote: post #41
guscost wrote: post #11

Weird theory of mine: The DoD ultimately picks these winning planes based on which one “looks cooler” or basically has better aesthetics. I think the F-35 has better aesthetics than the Boeing X-32, just like the F-22 has better aesthetics than the YF-23. You could say I’m used to seeing the winning designs as “normal”, but I distinctly remember having this reaction before the JSF competition was over.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

Sun Tzu didnt have stealth aircraft. In many ways, if they see enough of you to be intimidated then they can see enough of you to kill you. The f-35 wants to make the kill before the target even realizes it is in danger, let alone sees the aircraft comming. I doubt Sun Tzu would have encouraged his spies or saboteurs to stand out from the crowd.

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#59

Post by wtvanhest »

Judgmentality wrote: post #47
WJW wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damen shipyards is on record for stating that they regularly tweak warship designs to "look sleeker and meaner" because it both makes the admirals happy and also reaffirms the beliefs of the public of how warships are "supposed" to look. I'd be very surprised if military aircraft designers did not do something similar. In any case it's also good military thinking. Sun Tzu already said that the pinnacle of warfare is…

> In any case it's also good military thinking. Or more likely enemies see it as posturing and strike full force, thinking they can pierce the superficial veil of technological supremacy. Come on, security theater is bullshit. How many people actually think the TSA does anything useful? If anything it lulls people into a false sense of safety, making us weaker. If our enemies are so easily deterred that our appearanc…

Hijackings were extremely common prior to flight security. TSA was another level, that was extremely frustrating throughout the 2000s, but at a minimum it prevents wildly unstable people from boarding with weapons

Check out this list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings

Re: Pentagon Puts F-35 Full-Rate Production Decision on Hold

#60

Post by enw »

guscost wrote: post #11

Weird theory of mine: The DoD ultimately picks these winning planes based on which one “looks cooler” or basically has better aesthetics. I think the F-35 has better aesthetics than the Boeing X-32, just like the F-22 has better aesthetics than the YF-23. You could say I’m used to seeing the winning designs as “normal”, but I distinctly remember having this reaction before the JSF competition was over.

I think this is much more common and crucial for success than we admit. Aesthetics have a very real impact on customers and observers, but we like to pretend it’s not that important.
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