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UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

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Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#241

Post by crx07 »

Symbiote wrote: post #16

Please look after our star [1]. I hope we get it back in the not too distant future. [1] https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-latest-eu-chief-gu... (I donated to fund the projection.)

Even as an American with no stake in the UK, this departure saddens me after how hard my family fought in Europe in defense of stability in that region.

The best thing that can come of this is that the UK promptly rejoins and everyone tries to put this indiscretion in the past. But even assuming they do rejoin, this tantrum has still significantly increased the risk of a massive conflict for probably a century or longer -- any hell-bent ideological maniac in any member state can now effectively use Brexit as a populist rallying cry that might actually work. (And most certainly, states with minority viewpoints will use it as leverage against the majority for an untold length of time.)

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#242

Post by cycrutchfield »

Veen wrote: post #230
ben_w wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are asking why the UK would be weaker without Scotland. I do not understand why you do not find convincing the very claims you already concede? 10% weaker is weaker, specifically by 10%.

I do not find it convincing because reduced GDP does not equate to weakness. It has to be viewed in context: GDP would be reduced but per capita GDP would not be reduced by 10 percent (because the population would also be lower). Furthermore, the UK spends more on Scotland than Scotland contributes, so it's a net economic burden. Independence would remove that burden, leaving the UK better off. I think I have already…

Is West Germany better off with East Germany or without? Or how about is California better off with Alabama or without?

By all means continue to shrink yourself down into the smallest tribal sub-population you can slice yourself into. I’m sure prosperity is right around the corner when you finally do.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#243

Post by Veen »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #242
Veen wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not find it convincing because reduced GDP does not equate to weakness. It has to be viewed in context: GDP would be reduced but per capita GDP would not be reduced by 10 percent (because the population would also be lower). Furthermore, the UK spends more on Scotland than Scotland contributes, so it's a net economic burden. Independence would remove that burden, leaving the UK better off. I think I have already…

Is West Germany better off with East Germany or without? Or how about is California better off with Alabama or without? By all means continue to shrink yourself down into the smallest tribal sub-population you can slice yourself into. I’m sure prosperity is right around the corner when you finally do.

> is California better off with Alabama or without?

It would almost certainly be better off without.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#244

Post by atc »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #212
monoideism wrote: post #161

I'm amazed at reading British HNers who are presumably mostly rational calling Brexit "evil" and "racist" on this thread. I personally think Brexit is probably an ill-advised move for the UK, but the feelings provoked here by leaving a historically recent trade and cultural union are far, far out of proportion with the deed itself. If anything actually destroys your country, it'll be the exaggerated emotional respons…

Leaving a trade zone will cause issues. Removing free movement of people is the evil bit.

Why on earth is borders and democratic control of immigration "evil"?!

HN is _such_ an echo chamber!

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#245

Post by atc »

Fifer82 wrote: post #60

As a Scotsman, this is a sad day. My only hope is that we leave the Union and that Ireland can work out it's differences and pursue reunification. There is nothing else left for it. A tragic time to be British and nothing to celebrate here.

As a Unionist, I really hope you don't.

Scotland, NI, Wales and England are stronger together. Our shared history is to be celebrated and we should pull together in this new chapter, not tear ourselves apart.

I wish you & your family an amazing 2021. Peace.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#246

Post by galvin »

skissane wrote: post #177
galvin wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SNP's majority and the remain vote in Scotland certainly give credence to that idea. Given how close the last referendum was the Brexit issue could easily be enough to tip the scales, granted it's always difficult to predict what other factors might be in play. I must admit that part of me likes the irony of the UK "forging it's own path" resulting Westminster losing power and it's states gaining independence. As…

> As a side note, I think it's better to refer to the northern Irish as republicans and unionists The reason I spoke of Catholics and Protestants is because there is a religious background question ("what religion you were raised in") on the Northern Ireland Census, and it is widely expected to flip in this year's census, and if not this year, then almost surely by the next census in 2031. By contrast, the Northern I…

In the context of the census that certainly makes sense and there are obviously strong links between religious backgrounds and political beliefs.

The reason I mention it is because I've encountered too many people in continental Europe who assume the Troubles were purely due differences in religious beliefs which seems absurd given how similar those two branches of catholicism are. I realize it's entirely based on my personal experience but I've seen it too often to ignore!

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#247

Post by [deleted] »

Veen wrote: post #243
cycrutchfield wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is West Germany better off with East Germany or without? Or how about is California better off with Alabama or without? By all means continue to shrink yourself down into the smallest tribal sub-population you can slice yourself into. I’m sure prosperity is right around the corner when you finally do.

> is California better off with Alabama or without? It would almost certainly be better off without.

[deleted]

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#248

Post by skissane »

galvin wrote: post #246
skissane wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a side note, I think it's better to refer to the northern Irish as republicans and unionists The reason I spoke of Catholics and Protestants is because there is a religious background question ("what religion you were raised in") on the Northern Ireland Census, and it is widely expected to flip in this year's census, and if not this year, then almost surely by the next census in 2031. By contrast, the Northern I…

In the context of the census that certainly makes sense and there are obviously strong links between religious backgrounds and political beliefs. The reason I mention it is because I've encountered too many people in continental Europe who assume the Troubles were purely due differences in religious beliefs which seems absurd given how similar those two branches of catholicism are. I realize it's entirely based on my…

> The reason I mention it is because I've encountered too many people in continental Europe who assume the Troubles were purely due differences in religious beliefs

I agree that it is a complex situation, and that while religion is a major factor, it is not the only factor, and painting it as purely about religion is an oversimplification. On the other hand, I worry that many people oversimplify it in the other direction, and try to present it as if it has nothing to do with religion, which is false.

> which seems absurd given how similar those two branches of catholicism are

I think you mean Christianity, not Catholicism here.

Britain and Ireland have a long history of religious conflict and sectarianism. In recent decades, the intensity of that conflict has dropped down dramatically, in large part due to secularisation. But decades ago, it was much more intense.

That conflict was never primarily about religious doctrine, although religious doctrine still had a big role to play in it. A lot of it was about the fear that Catholicism was a means for foreign Catholic political powers – Spain, France, etc – to take over. It was also about who was the rightful king – Catholic King James VII and II was removed in a coup in 1688 and replaced with his Protestant daughter Mary and son-in-law William of Orange. James had an authoritarian ruling style, which caused a lot of conflicts with Parliament; but he was also an advocate of religious toleration, which was deeply unpopular with the majority of Protestants; those two factors combined led to his removal. James sought to regain the throne, and many Irish Catholics supported him, along with France. His supporters (the Jacobites) fought a war (with French help) to gain control of Ireland (the Williamite War of 1689 to 1691), but lost. (His supporters included some Protestants, especially conservatives who viewed the removal of the king in a coup as a threat to the legitimacy of the monarchy.) Protestant Unionists in Northern Ireland still celebrate their side's victories in that war to this day, particularly on the 12th of July.

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#249

Post by messe »

hndudette wrote: post #95
matthewmacleod wrote: post #46

Little to celebrate here. The main outcome is that it’s now going to be much more of a pain in the arse to perform lots of basic functions that we took for granted. There is now a bunch more red tape involved involved in buying or selling goods or services to other European counties. It’s harder and more expensive to move for work or education, both to and from the UK. The UK now has a customs border inside it’s own…

Wouldn't it be better to replace the EU with an expansive multilateral free trade treaty that encompasses the same states? Why do we need an additional layer of government?

Wouldn't it be better to do that to the US also?

Re: UK formally leaves European Union after 48 years

#250

Post by kmeisthax »

blibble wrote: post #196
kmeisthax wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of the "people can't be trusted with international law" thing. I mean, I also hate Brexit, but I hate policy laundering too. And international agreements are really good at just that, because they aren't democratically accessible. Ironically, the EU tried to solve this problem: it had a parliament with democratic elections that actually made decisions about the kinds of international treaties EU member…

> Ironically, the EU tried to solve this problem: it had a parliament with democratic elections that actually made decisions about the kinds of international treaties EU member states would adopt. the EU parliament can't do any of these things it can't even propose legislation at best it's a rubber stamp for the Council and the Commission

The keyword here is "tried". Pretty much every other multilateral trade agreement is entirely undemocratic. Parties to the agreement negotiate on a condition of unanimity. This isn't just minority rule (Council/Commission), it's minority-of-the-minority rule.

The solution to the EU being "undemocratic" is to make it democratic: move decision-making power to the European Parliament and away from member states. You can have democracy or soverignity but not both.

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